# Wikipedia:Reference desk/all

Wikipedia Reference Desk - All recent questions

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# December 7

## Can a website know what folder did I save its content to or upload contents from?

And also, are there other informations transmitted?--chaoxiandelunzi (talk) 00:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure not. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 07:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes. With some Javascript and/or flash programs it's trivial to see most of that information. Even without that, a normal http POST command doesn't have to send that information, but it would be possible to have it included. Your only protection is in what your browser builds in. I don't know the specifics, but Bubba's almost certainly wrong in such a blanket statement. Shadowjams (talk) 12:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I stand corrected. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:01, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## Gmail tab in Safari is stuck at 27 email notifications

I'm running OS X 10.9 with Safari 7.0. For some reason, the tab that I have Gmail in says I have 27 unread emails which it has said for days no matter how many unread emails I actually have. One of the interesting things is that when I change to that tab, the title bar of the window has the correct count. It's just the tab. I've tried clearing the cache and the recommendations at this link. Any ideas as to how to fix this so that it updates? Dismas|(talk) 01:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried logging out of gmail and logging back in? RudolfRed (talk) 03:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
If I log out, clear the cache, and then log back in, the tab updates (now 20) but then if I quit and reopen Safari, it reverts right back to 27. Dismas|(talk) 03:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

## Red lens on the back of laptop harddisk

My laptop HDD (WD5000BEVT) failed so I replaced it. I wonder what this red lens thing on the back is for. It isn't present on the new drive (entirely different series/model). --78.148.106.99 (talk) 03:36, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I can't say for sure, but it looks to me like a water damage indicator. I've not seen one before on a hard drive, but the indicators on some phones look very similar to that. I notice it appears red in colour - if it is a moisture indicator, this is usually what happens when they are triggered. I also notice from the picture that some of the metal appears to have oxidised - was the drive ever exposed to water prior to failure? If so, the fact that the "lens" is red would suggest it is indeed a moisture indicator. AJCham 03:35, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## Google search not showing wikipedia

My Google Search for "William Hastie" gives all results for William H. Hastie whereas I am looking for William Hastie. However "William Hastie" has been viewed more (1019 times) than "William H. Hastie" (960 times) in the last 30 days. Is there any way to increase Search Engine Ranking for "William Hastie"?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Solomon7968 (talkcontribs) 08:08, 7 December 2013‎

Bear in mind it's possible plenty of the people visiting William Hastie actually wanted William H. Hastie. I'm not totally convinced we have our primary topics right, although having William H. Hastie at the current location appears correct as the H. seems to be used by most sources. Anyway, William H. Hastie appears to be a lot more talked about than William Hastie including with places named after him etc, including with some which mention him without the H. So the only way to change the search rankings would be to get people to stop talking about William H. Hastie (not realisticly possible) or to get people to talk much more about William Hastie (difficult, none of the stuff he did appears to be that significant). That or get the search engines to change their algorithms to care a lot less about what people are actually talking about and linking to and want to find when searching. If you just want to filter out plenty of the other stuff try '"william hastie" -"william h. hastie"'. Perhaps also throw -"william henry hastie" and not sure if it's necessary but -"william h hastie". Nil Einne (talk) 11:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I think the post is about getting Google to find the Wikipedia article William Hastie, and not about using Google to find other information about that William Hastie. The article is the first Google hit for me on William Hastie theologian so the article is indexed by Google. It just doesn't place in searches on "William Hastie" alone. We are making an encyclopedia and not doing search engine optimization. Don't make artificial edits in attempts to place an article higher in Google. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Sure but my point is the only real way to get the William Hastie article to rank higher would be if stuff on the internet changes, e.g. if people start talking about the person covered in our William Hastie article and therefore linking to that article a lot more or if people stop talking about the William H. Hastie (or if the internet search engines purposely damage their algorithms). Well okay I didn't mention other stupid possibilities like people talking about William H. Hastie but linking to our article on the person we cover in William Hastie or spambots talking random crap and linking to William Hastie (which doesn't work that well anyway) but I took it as a given they weren't under consideration as they are just silly. (The others may not be really plausible, but if people really were to stop talking about someone or start talking about someone else, it's questionable if either are 'bad' per se.)
The search string '"william hastie" -"william h. hastie"' is enough to ensure you find our article on William Hastie, at least last time I checked (before my first post). Adding theologian may work as well, but it seems to me easily possible someone searching for the person may not know they are a theologian hence my suggestion. The william h hastie thing should be an obvious choice once you find 'william hastie' or '"william hastie"' is not finding what you want but stuff on William H. Hastie. (The Henry was added in the even the -h example isn't sufficient in some circusmtancess.)
There remains of course the issue (which the RD isn't the place to deal with) that our primary topic for William Hastie may be a mistake. If we were to redirect William Hastie to William H. Hastie, we could provide a diambig note to direct people to our disambig page. This would have the advantage that most people arriving at our article on William Hastie, which as I've said I suspect ended up at the wrong page. would likely end up at the right place. And those people searching on internet search engines like Google who end up on William H. Hastie but are looking for some other William Hastie would also have an easy way to find what they're looking for.
We could of course make a disambig notice in William H. Hastie regardless of whether William Hastie directs there, but I'm not sure how much support there is for adding a disambig note when internally it would seem unnecessary (as people should not come to William H. Hastie unless they are looking for William H. Hastie, I'm presuming that none of the others are William H. Hastie but didn't check).
Nil Einne (talk) 16:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
P.S. I could be I'm mistaken about the significance of William Hastie (and therefore the correct primary topic, although it's still possible William Hastie redirecting to the disambig page may make more sense even if not really helping with our search engine dilemma). I had a quick look at the 'what links here' to look for incorrect links thinking there might be a few, but what I found instead are a large number of links that appear correct. It looks like William Hastie's legacy in India or perhaps South Asia may be fairly great. This may explain the OP's interest as I believe they are from there. In that case, and considering the ongoing rise of India or perhaps the wider South Asia region, it may be the problem will eventually sort itself out in the manner I mentioned, namely with more people talking about William Hastie. P.P.S. I see now that William Hastie is linked from Template:Swami Vivekananda which I think is the cause of many of the links. P.P.P.S. I forgot to mention, I'm still not sure why there's a link to William Heste in our William H. Hastie article. Nil Einne (talk) 16:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I just tried Microsoft Bing and it gave me both: William Hastie and William H. Hastie. AboutFace_222601:7:7680:626:CC14:6991:8170:36EF (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Google returns what it "thinks" you want, and results depend on where you search from. The Scottish theologian is the second result for me here in the UK on a "William Hastie" search. Dbfirs 10:06, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I guess some software I have might collect my personal informations by browsing through my hard disk. I am using Windows now.--Wg127 (talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Some people use sandboxing programs like Sandboxie, others use a whole virtual install inside a virtualisation system like VirtualBox. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 14:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

If you place your mouse cursor on a folder icon in Windows Explorer and do a right click you will see an item on the dropdown menu: Share With. Then there will be a subdirectory, one of the items will be "Nobody." I think it is all you need. AboutFace_222601:7:7680:626:CC14:6991:8170:36EF (talk) 18:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That is all you need assuming you have well-behaved programs. If you suspect (as I believe the OP does) that some program may be deliberately attempting to harvest personal information, asking them politely not to share things just isn't going to cut it. I would second the virtual machine option, ensuring that any options which expose the real operating system to the virtual one (e.g. clipboard sharing) are switched off (I can't comment on the sandboxing programs, having never used them). Equisetum (talk | contributions) 20:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## Equipment identification

Could anyone identify the equipment in this image? I think it is for processing images, though I'm not sure. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It may be a microfilm reader. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 14:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Compare it, for example, to the Realist Vantage VI reader shown in this ebay auction - they're certainly not the same model, but they have similar features in common, including the microfiche tray, and the lens that shines up into the angled hood. Your one seems to also have spigots for spools, allowing microfilm as well as fiche to be used. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 14:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
• Thanks. That makes sense. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
How times have changed. These can still be found in many libraries. Pre-internet, newspapers were archived and made available on microfilm. They still make them, but are increasingly rare. Many libraries are seeking to eliminate them as demand is declining for microfilm and -fiche. Yay question in my immediate area of expertise! That doesn't happen often. Mingmingla (talk) 18:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Note the knobs on the ends of the spools: besides preventing the microfilm from coming off, they enable you to scroll through the film even without using the electrically powered scrolling that's present on many such devices. These are still important in some settings; I've been using my library's microfilms a ton lately, since our digital subscriptions to old newspapers provide single articles but are useless for the page layouts that I need when attempting to get the date for a front page that appears in a photograph. Nyttend (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
• Interesting. The museum where I was has pretty much abandoned their microfilm room, choosing instead to redigitalise their collection using computers. I've never had the chance to use such a machine yet :-(. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

## Choosing the web construction software.

Hello there,

I posted recently "Hiring a programmer for a job," "Setting up a website," etc. I will try to formulate my goal. I need to set up a website where I will explain how my patent works. That will require perhaps 3-5 maybe more pages of hand typed text with some formulas (about 8-10). I have to explain the background, then how everything works, etc.

Well, somebody, perhaps StuRat or SteveBaker suggested to use WordPress or Apache. I just looked into both. The WordPress requires MySQL. I once tried to handle it but found it obscure, besides they were intrusive, trying to contact me to get something from me I don't even remember what. I think somebody acquired a copyright for it or so. I set up Microsoft Sql Server instead. It has worked for me for many years. Now, my question is: can I use Sql Server with WordPress instead of MySql?

In fact I don't think I need a database of any kind. I can explain everything in simple terms in just a few web pages. Is it possible with WordPress?

Thanks, AboutFace_222601:7:7680:626:CC14:6991:8170:36EF (talk) 20:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

## PDFs in IE10, Windows 8

So I bought a computer yesterday (with a CD drive, mind you!), and it's my first time attempting to use Windows 8; I've used IE 10 before, but only in a work context in which I can't customise anything. To my disappointment, whenever I try to download a PDF, it brings it up in a separate Acrobat Reader window, although I'd like it to load in a separate tab. What do we call the ability to view a PDF in one's browser? I've tried looking for help resources, but I'm having trouble because I don't even know what to call it. This was possible in basic IE8 in Windows 7 (see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2012 August 29), and the Windows 7 computer I use at work is able to open them in IE10 with some sort of plugin, but a Google search for <acrobat plugin ie10> returns only results for Windows 7, plus occasional things (example) discussing complete failure to load, rather than the file loading in the wrong way. Any idea what terms, other than "plugin", would be good search terms? Or perhaps any ideas on how to help me directly, since I find Windows 8 very annoyingly confusing? Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting my misidentification! I've installed absolutely nothing since buying this computer, except for the programs that were suggested at startup, as well as a free program to restore the start menu, which the Staples salesman suggested. I was able to read the files in a weird way, so I assumed it was the latest edition of Adobe Reader. I've been using the Acrobat Professional 9.0 since buying it several years ago (just haven't installed it yet) because I need to be able to create and modify PDFs beyond what the reader can do; I didn't remember difficulties with previous versions of Windows, so I took it to be the result of using a new Windows edition. Nyttend (talk) 22:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 8

Accessing or downloading the database of locations of places, cities, airports shopping malls, peaks and rivers and other natural or man made features along with their common names in Wikipedia. Is there such a thing where one can download the names and latitudes and longitudes of places, cities mentioned as articles in Wikipedia? Where can one download a database if such a thing exists? Thank you 184.98.131.171 (talk) 01:22, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I can think of two things that you might mean; please tell me which one, or describe your request more specifically if I've misunderstood you. (1) A complete database dump; see WP:DUMP. It's easy if you have the hard drive space and the technical knowledge; I don't have either one. (2) Just the names and coordinates. I don't know if there's a way to get that. Also Note that this is a kind of question that's better asked at WP:Help desk. This isn't the "wrong" place to come, and you're not in trouble; it's just that the Help Desk regulars are probably able to give you a more solid answer than the Reference Desk regulars. Nyttend (talk) 05:10, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## Sunken shipments of computers

Are there any known sunken shipments of computers, even small shipments? I was wondering what if any bacteria degrade them. CensoredScribe (talk) 01:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Last April, somebody asked about data degradation on computers, and I linked to the failure analysis report for Air France 447, whose flight data computer spent several months at great depth in the Atlantic Ocean. The report details exactly how the deep ocean and the salt water caused damage to the electronics. In the very deep ocean, the general rule of thumb is that it is an abiotic zone - it is very cold and depleted of oxygen - so few bacteria can survive. (Exceptions exist: there are extremophiles and there are hydrothermal vents and all sorts of other examples - but most of the bottom of the very deep ocean is abiotic). Most of the damage to the data recorder was due to salt water corrosion. Nimur (talk) 02:06, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Concerning the earlier discussion, wouldn't it be possible to mount data recorders and attached emergency-locators on the external skin of the aircraft with a mechanism that causes them to eject themselves from the aircraft shortly before or shortly after a crash especially involving the ocean? Bus stop (talk) 02:32, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Although you have to remember that flight data recorders are vastly tougher than your average computer; your average laptop or desktop would presumably hold up far far far worse than a black box. Nyttend (talk) 05:12, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## wytec dragon12 assembly language

hello a class i am in requires writing in assembly to display stuff on the LED display on a wytec dragon12+ board. i have to read in a text file with the following info:

    AssignMarks     db      10,8,9,7
HybridMarks     db      9
TermTests       db      8,9
FinalExam       db      22


and do the following:

a. Configure program constants;
b. Read the file of marks;
c. Call subroutine Calculate_Assignments_Hybrid_Average to calculate the integer average out of 50 of a set of
assignment and hybrid marks;
d. Call subroutine Calculate_Term_Tests_Final_Exam_Hybrid_Average to calculates the integer average out of 50 of a set of term test and final exam marks;
e. Call subroutine Pass_Fail to determine from c. above if the overall average is a Pass or a Fail;
f. Call subroutine Pass_Fail to determine from d. above if the overall average is a Pass or a Fail;
g. Call subroutine Config_HEX_Displays to configure the Wytec Dragon12+ Demo board hardware to use the Hex Displays (You do not have to write that subroutine)
h. Calling subroutine PF_Hex_Display that causes the Wytec Dragon12+ Demo board hardware to display P for Pass or F for Fail on the 7‐segment Hex Display as a result of e. and f. above.

Four assignments – 10 marks each
Hybrid Activities – total of 10 marks
Two Terms tests – 10 marks each
One Final Exam – 30 marks

In order to pass, the student must have a grade of at least at least 50% or 'D- on Lab Exercises/Assignments/Hybrid activities (25/50) and at least 50% or 'D-' on Term Tests/Final Exam (25/50).


however, to begin i dont know how to read in the values from the .txt file. I have an #include CourseMarks.txt line, but how do I check each individual number from the file?Pops926 (talk) 05:45, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

As I understand the above, your program will not be reading from the txt file. I suspect that file I/O may be to advanced for the current assignment. To simplify the problem, your instructor has provided the data in the form of assembly language data definitions. By #include'ing the file into your program, the data becomes part of that program. You only need to load and add the data by referencing the labels that have also been conveniently provided. -- 24.254.222.118 (talk) 09:03, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
To clarify 'db' is an assembler instruction, which means 'define bytes'. It creates a block of data with the values specified; this can be accessed by assigning the label to a pointer, and then using the 'load byte from pointer' assembly instruction, for each byte. However, the defines don't provide the size of each data block; the best way around this is to load both the label you want, and the next one, and then subtract the two pointers. This will give you the size of each block in bytes, which in this case is the same as the number of entries. CS Miller (talk) 15:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I am thinking of changing my ADSL connection to SDSL (its about 10% more than what I'm currently paying), and have a two questions about it. My current service is advertised as 16/1 Mbit/sec, but my ADSL modem reports that it has connected at 14 Mbit/sec down, and 1 Mbit/sec up. I assume that this is due to the phone line; I'm about 1 mile from my exchange, and there's no FTTC/FTTP here.

• Will most ADSL modems connect to a SDSL service?

CS Miller (talk) 14:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't make those assumptions but check the specifications. Single-pair high-speed digital subscriber line suggests max speed of 2312 kbps symmetrical. Don't expect an ADSL modem to work with SHDSL or SDSL and the provider may supply a new modem (at a cost). It will not be dynamically changing the allocation of up and down load frequencies. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

## Windows 7 dual-boot hibernate to switch OS

Hi, My PC is dual-boot between MS-Windows 7 and Debian 6.0 (both 64bit). The primary boot manager is the native MS-Windows one; grub is installed on a partition and Windows is set to chain into this for Debian. Is it possible, after doing a full hibernate in MS-Windows, to force the Windows boot manager to appear. This would allow me to boot in Debian instead, and later resume MS-Windows. I am aware when doing this, that I must not access partitions in both operating systems at the same time. CS Miller (talk) 14:49, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you tried running VirtualBox then you can use Windows and Linux at the same time.Dja1979 (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
This and this, at the bottom suggest you can't do what you want using the Windows bootloader, because it checks for a hibernated OS before anything else. The only way, I think, would be to use GRUB as the main bootloader.-- 14:46, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

## Blogging Names

I would like to write a blog under the name of the fictional narrator of such, but I notice whenever I post anything to my current blogger account, it gives my chosen username as author, is there any way of changing this for one particular blog, or would I have to create a new google account under the name of said fictional character, just for this?

94.13.255.20 (talk) 17:30, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Per this, there is a way to do what (I think) you want. Assuming you have multiple blogs in one Google/Blogger user profile, you can edit the template of the particular blog you wish to change. This might require some experimentation, depending on the complexity of the template you are using.
Go to the template section of the blog, and choose edit HTML. You should be able to find the template tag which is used to substitute the author title/display name in each post, for example, <data:post.author/> or <data:post.authorLabel/>. There is a list of possible tags. You can replace the tag with your fictional name. Some of the templates have complex conditionals, and the tag might appear multiple times, so I would change one instance at a time, and preview the template before changing the next one.

-- 14:37, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

## What is Linux logging by default?

Without installing any extra tools, what actions can be expected to be registered by a log-book (or similar) when running linux? Deleted files? Users logging in? Internet connection?OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:28, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Log-ons are registered by default; the last command will list them. This also logs reboots and shutdowns, but not, IIRC power-ups. CS Miller (talk) 21:47, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
In itself, Linux doesn't log much at all. The linux kernel does not normally attach to a standard input or output. Instead, print statements are pushed to the system log buffer, which users can access through e.g. dmesg. If you have a desktop distribution based on Linux, like Ubuntu or debian, then your distribution is probably configured to start init as soon as possible; and init probably spawns many processes, including syslogd or something similar. Those other processes can then also log to syslog. More recent distributions may log using dmesg or other higher-level utilities. So, your network daemon can log network activity; your desktop manager can log user-activity, and so on. Nimur (talk) 23:16, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## Setting up a website - Cloud Computing

Hi there,

I need to set up a website and I understand that as far as server is concerned I have two options: to set it up in my own computer (Dell R5400) or use cloud computing. I will eventually need just a few web pages, perhaps no more than 5 to code everything I need. I am wondering if anybody with cloud experience could give me a push? What I want to know is this: 1. How is it realistic for a small operator like myself to subscribe for this service. (I hope I use the correct expression) 2. How easy it is to use it? 3. How expensive is it going to be for a small guy like me?

I am thinking about using Dell's service.

Thanks, AboutFace222601:7:7680:626:4CB:248E:F27F:DFDB (talk) 21:48, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

You don't need cloud computing to serve web pages. Get a web hosting account. 115.114.135.249 (talk) 08:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

You are correct. I am "agonizing." I think there is a reason for that. I want it to be the most flexible with a possibility of expanding it in the future. Thank you very much for your post. AboutFace_22AboutFace 22 (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

If you're starting out with just a few simple HTML pages, then I highly recommend you use simple, cheap web hosting like mentioned above. If you want to expand, do more complicated things, and have more control, then you can move up to a different solution later - migrating a simple web page to a new server will not be a hard task. Many hosting providers also offer several tiers of service, and will offer solutions to move your webpage from their cheap shared hosting to a dedicated virtual machine or even a physical machine that is located in their datacenter and you have total control over. Katie R (talk) 19:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## Turning the Windows features On and Off

I just checked this option in my Windows 7 OS. In the section: Internet Information Services==>World Wide Web Services==>Security only one item is checked. It is "Request Filtering." Shall I turn other features on: (1) Basic authentication, (2) Client Certificate Mapping Authentication (3) Digest Authentication (4) IIS Client Certificate Mapping Authentication (5) IP security (6) URL authorization (I suspect that this might be an overkill although you never know) and (7) Windows Authentication?

I'm not completely sure but I think this only affects authentication of remote users by Microsoft's IIS web server. In other words, these options don't matter unless you're serving a web site from this Windows 7 machine, and you're doing it with IIS and not, say, Apache, and you want to make parts of it viewable only by certain people (e.g., by requiring a user name and password). -- BenRG (talk) 09:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct! Once I read that it all came back to me. Definitely it is for remote clients. Thank you much. AboutFace_22168.178.73.174 (talk) 19:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 9

## Links opening in new tabs

Does anyone know a way of forcing Firefox to not open links in a new tab when the site tries to force things that way? I'd just like it to open the links in the same tab. Is there something in about:config that I need to change? This is on a Mac, if it matters though I would think that the settings would be the same between PC and Mac. Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 14:11, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

This worked for me in Firefox 25.0.1, which is all I can test at the moment. Open the configuration settings (type about:config into the address bar and hit enter). Search for browser.link.open_newwindow, and double-click it to change the value to 1. A Mozilla article describes this behaviour. I used this page to test. -- 15:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC) ETA: oops, didn't realise you already mentioned about:config. Sorry!-- 15:16, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! That worked perfectly!! Dismas|(talk) 21:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

## Gizmodo web pages not displaying properly

Last week, all of a sudden, my web browser isn't displaying any of the Gizmodo web pages (Gawker, Lifehacker, etc.) correctly. The pages still load, but all of the pictures and links are on the left-hand side of the page, with the text displaying in one or two very long lines. It's functional, but not really readable.

I have this problem in both Firefox and IE Explorer. I also have it when I start Firefox in safe mode (and the only add-on that I have is Adblock). I tried clearing the cache, but that didn't fix it. A Google search shows that this has been a problem in the past for several browsers, but I'm not seeing anything mentioned in 2013, so I don't think the results are relevant. If anyone has any advice on how to fix it, I'd be very grateful. OldTimeNESter (talk) 19:04, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Can you try connecting from another Internet Access Point and checking for the issue?
--Gryllida (talk) 20:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

## Private domain registration

The question, boiling down to how to do this, is located here. Thanks!
--Gryllida (talk) 20:40, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

If you don't know how to do this already, then one shouldn’t risk it. However, if you're determined, start off like some where here: [3]--Aspro (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Would the article contain details about how this works? Probably you may be able to give hints, few sources on its talk page. --Gryllida (talk) 08:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Decline to add further. What may be legal in my country, may not be legal in yours. Therefore, I don't want to lead you into a situation where you spend the rest of your life in Guantánamo Bay.--Aspro (talk) 22:17, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## UAE questions

I was feeling nostalgic today, so I loaded up an AMOS game I had made almost two decades ago on E-UAE on my Linux PC. The first thing that happened, was that all the graphics were messed up. This is a problem that was known to me already when my real Amiga still worked - AMOS is incompatible with the AGA chipset, but repeatedly pressing the "Left Amiga" and "A" keys (to toggle between AmigaOS proper and AMOS) usually fixes the problem. But I couldn't locate any key mapped to "Left Amiga" on my Cherry Linux keyboard. What the heck are the Amiga keys mapped to?

After I restarted E-UAE in ECS mode, the game's graphics showed up properly. But when I actually played it, I noticed that the game, in particular the sound, ran slower than on a real Amiga. This on a PC with a 3 GHz dual core 64-bit CPU and 4 GiB of RAM. And, as I played the game further, it only slowed down even more. The E-UAE process started consuming over 90% of the system's CPU time, and the sound was almost painful to hear. Why does this happen? Is it because my computer is not powerful enough? The game worked fine on a plain, common-or-garden A1200 with a 14 MHz single core 32-bit CPU and 2 MiB of RAM, but then some of this is accountable for the emulation of a foreign processor itself taking some time. But why the heck was it slowing down even further over time?

And lastly, my real Amiga used a 640×512 desktop, and this is what E-UAE also opens up as. My current Samsung LCD monitor can easily display a resolution twice as much per direction, i.e. 1280×1024. Is there any way in E-UAE I could double the pixel size for a better on-screen experience? JIP | Talk 22:06, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The most likely reason it's slow is that the 3GHz CPU in your PC is emulating not just the 14MHz CPU in the Amiga - but also all of the other chips, such as the graphics and sound chips in the machine - which means that you're emulating hardware functions (which can be crazily fast) in software (which mostly isn't!). Consider that your PC has only 214 clock cycles in which to emulate one clock cycle on the Amiga. That includes things like translating the instruction set of the 68000 CPU as well as mimicking the sound and graphics chips using the PC's (very different) sound and graphics hardware.
As for why it's slowing down gradually, I'm not quite so sure. One possibility (since you're running this on Linux) is that you have some other process consuming significant CPU cycles at the same time. Linux gives new processes a particular process priority, and if there is competition with another process, then it'll gradually reduce the priority of CPU-hungry tasks over time to let other tasks run. This kind of load balancing isn't usually very noticeable unless two or more CPU-heavy tasks are in competition though. Another possibility is that your original game also slowed down gradually - there are many plausible reasons for that - but that you didn't notice it on the real Amiga because it still ran fast enough to produce an acceptable frame rate.
It is a bit odd though - recent versions of UAE use "JIT" (just in time compilation) of the emulated code - which means that the emulation should get gradually faster as more and more of the original code is converted to native x86 code so the emulator has to do less and less code translation work in each iteration of the game.
Our article on UAE (emulator) says that there are quite a few forks of that code - and it's possible that the one you've chosen is not the best available. SteveBaker (talk) 15:07, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I didn't exactly "choose" E-UAE - it came as default when I installed Fedora 17 Linux. It looks like I should give PUAE or FS-UAE a try, but how do I do that? At least PUAE doesn't seem to be available through a package manager, or even as an installable package at all, only via GIT, and I'm just barely learning how to use that. Are there any official PUAE distribution packages available, or do I have to get the source code via GIT and build it myself? JIP | Talk 19:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 10

## How to set Scroll wheel focus for newly opened folders in Windows 7 ?

Resolved

When I open a folder, in Windows 7, there are two vertical scroll bars, but the scroll wheel on my mouse allways starts out and stays focused on the navigation pane even when the mouse pointer hover over the file name pane.
Q: How may I set the scroll wheel focus to automatically follow where my mouse pointer is hovering?
(or, if that is not possible: how do I set the default focus to be on the file name pane insted of the navigation pane?)
-- 46.15.239.173 (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I use KatMouse to have scroll focus follow my cursor, and it works very well. There are a few programs that it doesn't work with, and elevated windows won't support it, but in most cases it just works. Katie R (talk) 16:11, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Perfect! Thank you! :-)
-- (OP) 46.15.70.61 (talk) 22:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Best for what? Value judgements vary enormously depending on particular priorities - how much do you value portability, battery life, screen quality, processing power, graphics, good looks etc.? If you tell us a bit more about which criteria you consider most important we will be able to help you better (please don't say all of them - you can't get all of them for $450, and some of them such as portability vs power, will always be a tradeoff however much you spend). Equisetum (talk | contributions) 11:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC) This sort of question is best researched at websites such as www.whatlaptop.co.uk where you can choose your own parameters and priorities. There are many similar magazines and websites.--Shantavira|feed me 12:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC) ## Citing a source Hi, how do I site a source in a Wikipedia article correctly? Spindocter123 (talk) 18:35, 10 December 2013 (UTC) The complete guidelines are here Wikipedia:Citing_sources. The beginner's guide to references is here : Help:Referencing_for_beginners. And an older tutorial is here : Wikipedia:Tutorial/Citing_sources. Probably the beginners guide is a good place to start. APL (talk) 18:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC) ## Windows ActiveX API DATE format I have to send a date value to an old ActiveX DLL that wants the number as a DATE (as defined in WTypes.h). I believe (although I may be wrong) that this is a double that's equal to the number of seconds since 1 January 1900. Does anyone have any suggestions for a simple way to convert to the DATE type from a more conventional format - time_t, tm, or just Year, Month, Day, Hour, Minute, Second as integers? Minimal use of API calls would be a great advantage. Thanks in advance. Tevildo (talk) 19:45, 10 December 2013 (UTC) I can't find any decent documentation for this DATE type; it's not one of the normal ones windows passes around (SYSTEMTIME and FILETIME). DATE seems to be used in various COM/OLE_Automation APIs, and there's a fairly extensive library for moving things between the types that API knows about - in particular, you may find VarBstrFromDate does something useful (bearing in mind that it yields a BSTR, which is a unicode string preceeded by a 4-byte length). On the off chance that this double contains the same info as a FILETIME (that is "the number of 100-nanosecond intervals since January 1, 1601 (UTC)") then I think this will convert it to a sane SYSTEMTIME struct (which has the actual info you want): SYSTEMTIME DATE_to_SYSTEMTIME(DATE dt){ ULARGE_INTEGER i; i.QuadPart = (ULONGLONG)floor(dt); FILETIME ft = {i.LowPart, i.HighPart}; SYSTEMTIME st; FileTimeToSystemTime(&ft, &st); return st; }  But without a definition of DATE (darned if I know why that's such a big ask of them) who knows. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 23:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Thanks for the information (which will come in very useful before long), but at the moment I need to convert _to_ a DATE value. I think I should be able to reverse your routine and drive it with a FILETIME value if necessary, but there may be a more efficient way yet... Tevildo (talk) 23:59, 10 December 2013 (UTC) That same library of conversion functions has VarDateFromDec which makes a DATE from a DECIMAL - but the same problem pertains, as it doesn't say what that DECIMAL means when converted to a DATE. Grr. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 00:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC) I think VarDateFromUDate is what I need. Thanks again for showing me where to look for it. :) Tevildo (talk) 00:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC) ## Valid URL with three dots in path ( /.../ ) I'm used to seeing long URLs being shortened by replacing part of it with ... , but that's only the link text being displayed, not the URL it links to. So I was surprised to come across this URL: www.fda.gov/downloads/MedicalDevices/.../UCM119861.pdf which does work when you paste it in the address bar (unless my pc is doing some weird caching). It's likely to confuse people, I first thought I copied the text instead of the link. Is this something recent, part of some scheme, norm, RFC, or typical for some specific webserver or application? I know you can rewrite the path to whatever you want, but it seems unlikely that this was the idea of a local developer or admin, given the .gov domain. Ssscienccce (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC) ".." commonly means the parent folder. The file at http://www.fda.gov/downloads/MedicalDevices/.../UCM119861.pdf can also be retrieved at http://www.fda.gov/downloads/MedicalDevices/../UCM119861.pdf and http://www.fda.gov/downloads/UCM119861.pdf. I guess their server is configured to treat "..." the same as "..". This page can also be accessed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Entertainment/../Computing, or "via" a non-existing page like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/NoSuchPage/../Computing. But "..." doesn't work here. This fails: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Entertainment/.../Computing. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC) As an example, mod_rewrite allows an Apache HTTP Server to pre-process any URL using a regular expression parser. This permits a skilled system-administrator to widen the list of valid URLs to almost any conceivable sequence of characters, and to statically or dynamically map those to retrieve specific resources. I do not know whether fda.gov web servers use Apache HTTP or if they use mod_rewrite; but they are evidently using a Content Management System that does allow them to virtualize URLs. Nimur (talk) 23:18, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Lol, so it's also the same as http://www.fda.gov/downloads/MedicalDevices/.././UCM119861.pdf, I had dismissed that possibility because it didn't add any useful functionality... Ssscienccce (talk) 01:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC) One "." means the current folder so yes, that works by ignoring "/." This also works: http://www.fda.gov/././downloads/././././UCM119861.pdf. It appears any number above two ".." acts the same as "..", so "...." acts as ".." and not as "../.." which would have gone back two folders. I guess it's a matter of interpretation whether to say "/..." works by splitting into "/../." or by shortening to "/..". PrimeHunter (talk) 02:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC) We can make relative wikilinks with "..". [[../]] on this page produces Wikipedia:Reference desk, and [[../Entertainment]] produces Wikipedia:Reference desk/Entertainment. But wikilinks like [[./]] or [[.././Entertainment]] don't work. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC) ## What is my file called? I created a file called "Bennett.png". It's ready to upload based on directions I was given. However, I don't think "Bennett.png" will be enough.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 22:07, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Upload where? Here? If so, then a more descriptive file name would be appropriate. Is Bennett a surname? If so, including the first name and possibly the location or occasion of the photo might be good. Dismas|(talk) 22:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC) My problem is that I don't know what the name of the file is now. I was told to upload to Commons. But "Bennett.png" is probably not enough. I don't know how to find the full name.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 22:35, 10 December 2013 (UTC) The full description of my problem is here.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 22:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC) The username Vchimpanzee has not uploaded any files, and there is no file called File:Bennett.png. Anyway, the name would be poor as Dismas said. A search [4] shows there are already 1266 files with Bennett in the name (File:Bennett.jpg is poorly named but there were fewer files in 2004). You don't have to give the file a good name on your own computer. You can choose a name in the upload form. But the file must exist on your own computer before you can upload it. I don't understand what you mean by not knowing the name of the file. How are you attempting to upload it without knowing its name? PrimeHunter (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC) The issue is not what to call it. The issue is what it is called now.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 22:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Maybe you should explain how you lost it or don't know its name because I don't think I'm the only one who is confused about how you can have a file that you don't know the name of. Dismas|(talk) 22:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC) ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I followed their directions. Using Paint I created a file which I saved as "Bennett.png". When I type "Bennett.png" it says no such file. I don't know where there is a list of files in my computer.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 23:01, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Okay, I'm going to a library tomorrow and I'll start the process from scratch. I can't do this.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 23:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Since you're on a library computer (or were at some point), are you sure that you still actually have the file? If you saved it while working on one of their computers, it is likely still on that computer specifically but probably not on all the computers in that library. If you saved it to a thumb drive of your own, then you should still have it. I'm guessing that you're working on a Windows machine. I am not in front of one now but if memory serves you should be able to go to the Start menu and near the bottom of the menu that pops up there should be a search box. You can use this to search the computer that you're on as well as your thumb drive, if you have one. Just type in what you think is the name of the file or just type in ".png" and it will find all the PNG files. You'll then have to scroll through the results to find your image but you may be able to put them in order by the date that they were saved. If you can do that, you should be able to find it rather quickly since it was saved in just the last few days. Dismas|(talk) 23:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC) Our logs don't show you have uploaded anything to Wikipedia or Commons, and it also sounds like your upload attempt failed. Maybe you don't know how to select the source file in the upload form. You don't write its name. You click a button so you can select the file on a drive on your computer, using your mouse. At least that's how I do it. You can then write the name it should have at Commons. This name can be different from the selected source file. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC) When you say 'I'm looking at "Bennett.png" right now' does that mean you can locate the icon that represents the file? If so, try this: • Right-click the icon. Select "properties". • Look for where it says "Location: " and select the text to the right of this. This is best done by right-clicking on the text, and choosing "select all". (If you select by left-clicking instead, you will have to drag to the right to be sure you get it all as it is likely to extend beyond the edge of the window. It should end in "Bennett.png".) • Right-click the selected text and choose "copy". • Paste the result into the file upload box. That is what your file is called, in full, including location. Card Zero (talk) 01:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC) I am at the fourth library and the file is now uploaded. This is the advice I was given at the other place I asked the question (and I can use it the next time). I wasn't getting a response there which is why I came here. At this point it was no longer a Wikipedia question. I emailed the file to User:Nil Einne (who said he never got it) and it was in my sent folder, which is how I retrieved it and converted it to png in my computer. After clicking Browse, try clicking your first name, then click "Pictures". (If you don't see a "Pictures" option, perhaps you need to click "Documents" first, then "Pictures". I don't have access to a Windows PC to check ATM.) Hopefully your Bennett.png will be listed there – click it.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC) I thought the image was supposed to show a serious problem with a page? I don't see anything wrong from that screenshot, although you are using the mobile site from what I assume is an ordinary desktop or perhaps laptop which seems a bad idea (even the iPad and I presume other large tablets default to the desktop site). Incidentally, I presume you understand despite all the effort, as the screenshot shows what are likely copyrighted elements of Windows and other software your photo is likely to be deleted on commons and probably unwelcome on wikipedia as well (hence why people recommended you upload it to an external site). 14:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nil Einne (talkcontribs) Well, for someone who has never seen the mobile site, something like this IS a serious problem, and there are recommendations on the Village Pump. Bing simply said it was a Wikipedia article and so I clicked on it and saw this weird formatting and no way to correct the situation. Regardless of what I was told to do, there are those who SPECIFICALLY said a Wikipedia screenshot should go to Commons. When I get home, I'm going to try the advice above so I can do this next time.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 16:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Following the advice of User:PartTimeGnome where I first asked the question, I clicked on my first name. Nothing happened. Sometimes you have to double click to get a result. I did when I did that. I double-clicked pictures. The file "C:\Users\xx\Pictures\Bennett.png" came up, xx being my first name. So now I know what to do. When this gets archived I need to link to it so I'll know what to do the next time. Thank you everyone.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC) ────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────One more thing: I tried User:Card Zero's advice but all I get by right-clicking where I see the word "Bennett" is Restore, Move, Size, Minimize, Maximize and Close. No "properties".— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:41, 12 December 2013 (UTC) That means it's a window, such as the Paint window. It's a window with the title "Bennett" so it's probably displaying the contents of the file, perhaps because you just created it and saved it with that name. I was hoping that instead of looking at Paint you might be looking at File Explorer with the "pictures" directory open. (Isn't it called "my pictures"?) Card Zero (talk) 21:11, 12 December 2013 (UTC) They dropped the "My" in newer versions of Windows. (Either Vista or Win 7 was the first to omit "My"; I'm not sure which.) – PartTimeGnome (talk | contribs) 21:15, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Huh, you're right, I never noticed. (Vchimpanzee has Vista.) Card Zero (talk) 21:23, 12 December 2013 (UTC) By the way, if you open Paint and choose "save as", it will show you the contents of the directory it is saving pictures to. You can right-click on any of the icons there (they may be thumbnails) or on the blank space around them, to find the location of that directory. Windows tends to hide file paths (and hide them more with each new version), as if they were embarrassing. Card Zero (talk) 21:11, 12 December 2013 (UTC) # December 11 ## stack/heap in Java hello can someone look over my assignment and see if I understand whats on the stack/heap in Java? Its these two documents [5] [6] The only one I am uncertain of, is strings. when a string is in a method, its in the stack, right? but if its declared as a global variable, its on the heap? or is a string always in the heap?Sdjkgkdjfag999 (talk) 00:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC) In Java, Strings are objects; literal strings represent references to objects (and the compiler may choose to coalesce these into a single object). The basic rule is, "all objects get allocated on the heap." Strictly speaking, the language specification does not say where objects will be allocated (on the stack or the heap): except that heap data is accessible across all threads. In practice - every Java VM you will probably ever use, like HotSpot and OpenJDK and so forth - will allocate strings on the heap. You can read more about HotSpot at the Runtime Overview from OpenJDK. Nimur (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC) As a stunning counter-example, JRockit may choose to allocate a short string in a Thread Local Area. But don't put this down as the answer to your homework problems unless you want to spend some time arguing about memory-management strategies with your teacher/TA/professor. The canonical answer is, "Strings go on the heap." Nimur (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC) OK thanks guys.Sdjkgkdjfag999 (talk) 01:37, 11 December 2013 (UTC) ## building binary search tree from a bunch of numbers another question... i was given the numbers 38 14 12 6 28 18 4 19 13 16 30 and had to create a binary search tree. How do you create the tree based on that? what number is the root? i dont know where to startSdjkgkdjfag999 (talk) 01:51, 11 December 2013 (UTC) this is what i get  38 / \ 14 28 / \ / \ 6 12 18 19 \ / \ \ 4 13 16 30  but it looks seriously screwed up, and there's really no method to my madness.Sdjkgkdjfag999 (talk) 02:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC) The first item is the root. The result is going to be seriously unbalanced, with the entire tree sprouting from the left branch. That's still a tree: it's a tree in need of rebalancing. (If you're supposed to be acting as a Self-balancing binary search tree, you'll do the rebalancing yourself as you go along.) Card Zero (talk) 02:27, 11 December 2013 (UTC) See Binary search tree. You started correctly by making the first number (38) the root. But 12 < 14, so 12 should move left from 14:  38 / 14 / 12  You also made other errors but maybe you now know how to fix them. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC) alright... i think i understand it now. is this correct:  38 / 14 / \ 12 28 / \ / \ 6 13 18 30 / / \ 4 16 19  also, what about theese numbers: 23 18 38 14 12 6 28 16 7 15 13 32 30  23 / \ 18 38 / / 14 28 / \ \ 12 16 32 / \ / / 6 13 15 30 \ 7  is that correct?Sdjkgkdjfag999 (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC) Yes. These trees can also be rearranged to be flatter, which would make them better balanced trees, but doesn't seem to be what you're being asked to do. You've got the hang of the rule now, anyway: for each node, higher numbers go into the right child node and lower numbers go on the left. Card Zero (talk) 00:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC) ## Writing out contents of ADF files My KryoFlux controller has arrived now, and it seems to be working OK. I'm currently in the process of transferring my several hundred Amiga disks to ADF files. E-UAE can emulate an Amiga floppy drive from an ADF file, so I can already get at the disks' contents through E-UAE, but I'd like to write the contents to real Linux files. Is there a way in Linux to write out the contents of an ADF file as normal files? JIP | Talk 18:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC) There's an open source ADF library, adflib which includes unadf, an "un-tar" equivalent for ADF. pyADF, a Python wrapper over adflib, has a rudimentary command-line shell allowing you to dir, get, put, and print files inside the ADF. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 21:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC) I downloaded the ADFlid package, but my attempt to build it resulted in numerous errors. I have contacted the author about it. This ADFlib package seems to be the only tool in existence capable of writing out the contents of ADF disk image files. If everything else fails, I still have the option of going through every single ADF disk image file in the E-UAE emulator, as it is perfectly capable of writing files directly to the host Linux file system. It will, of course, be much slower, so I'd rather avoid it. JIP | Talk 18:35, 12 December 2013 (UTC) A binary unadf package is in the standard Ubuntu repositories. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 22:08, 12 December 2013 (UTC) I had to install the libtool package, but after that it all built fine (the .so and the unadf executable) without issue. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 22:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC) ## Floppy disk deterioration Keeping within my software preservation theme, now that I am transferring my old Amiga disks to a modern PC using KryoFlux, I have noticed that very few of the disks have read errors. Two years ago, when I was doing the same for my old Commodore 64 disks, a great deal of them had read errors, rendering those disks unusable. Now my old Commodore 64 disks were 5.25" disks, while my old Amiga disks are 3.5" disks. The Amiga disks are also about half a decade younger than the Commodore 64 disks. Do 5.25" disks deteriorate faster than 3.5" disks, or is this result simply because the disks are younger? JIP | Talk 21:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC) Just a guess, but the hard case around the smaller disks may offer some protection, say from UV light and moisture. StuRat (talk) 03:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Yes, I've noticed the same effect. In theory, the larger discs should deteriorate less because the recording tracks are much wider, but Stu's guess sounds good to me. I've seen mould growths on the recording surfaces of both types of disc when they have been kept in less than perfect conditions. Dbfirs 09:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC) I recently converted 30 year old 5.25" disks for apple. Most were completely OK. They were stored in dark dry conditions. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC) # December 12 ## MP3 file compression. Why when I 7zip an MP3 file of just 158KB it goes up in file size to 162KB? Tech info, Intro to Info Tech. Thanks. David Smith. 12/12/2013. 14:09 Thesmithster (talk) 03:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC) My guess, it was unable to compress the file any further, but added some overhead to describe the new compression method. StuRat (talk) 03:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC) It is a mathematical certainty that no lossless file compression algorithm can EVER absolutely guarantee to shrink every possible file - every single one of them will actually slightly increase the size of worst-case files....which is what's happening to you here. Typically, files that have already been compressed (as an MP3 certainly has) have already had most of the waste squeezed out of them - and it's fairly unlikely that more remains to be removed. Think about it like this: If I had a program that could compress every single file you gave it - then you could take the output of the program and compress it some more by running it through the same program again! Keep doing this and eventually, you'd be able to store an infinite amount of "stuff" in just one bit! Clearly that's not possible. That said, "LOSSY" compression can indeed guarantee that files get smaller - but they also get more and more screwed up. SteveBaker (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC) ## Some sort of big apple .... He gave the organization the computer around 1980, to help Seva enter and analyze survey data from its eye surgeries in Nepal. “You’ll never be able to use all the memory,” Dr. Brilliant recalled Mr. Jobs telling him. “It’s five megabytes!’” How could a 1980 Apple ][ have five megabytes memory? -- Toytoy (talk) 12:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Apple ProFile -- Finlay McWalterTalk 12:25, 12 December 2013 (UTC) The quote ambiguously uses the term "memory" to refer to the hard disk drive. This may be a quoted error by the journalist, or by the doctor; or it may be an accurate verbatim statement. Today, we commonly mean "RAM" when we use the term "memory" - but that has not always been true, and may not always be true in the future either. Five megabyte hard disk drives were certainly possible: history of hard disk drives. In the early 1980s, that was a large size for a personal computer, but commercial mainframes commonly had much larger hard disk drives. Nimur (talk) 12:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC) ## Neither my HP laptop nor Olympus digital camera can read the thousands of images in my SD card anymore. Help me see them again, please? After I inserted the 32 GB SD card into my computer (Windows 7 Ultimate, 64-bit), I tried to create new folders so I can sort my photos and videos more easily. It wouldn't allow me to create a new folder ("error 65535") so I created new folders in my main C: drive and tried to copy them into my SD card. There was another error, then I get a prompt saying something about my SD card not being formatted, and whether to format my SD card. I knew that formatting would erase the thousands of media I've snapped or recorded since 2012, so I had to click "no." I took out and re-inserted my SD card. The computer registered an SD card being in there, but it asked me to format the card again! Then I put the card back into the camera to see if it would still recognize my files. As soon as I turned the camera on, it would prompt the two "CARD SETUP" menu options: "Power Off" and "Format." I could not believe my eyes! This would be a HORRIBLE thing to happen to me. Please help me see my files again, please, so I can at least get them backed up. Thanks! --Let Us Update Wikipedia: Dusty Articles 16:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC) I'm not sure what has happened, but you might take a look at http://www.wiki-errors.com/err.php?wiki=65535. Looie496 (talk) 16:39, 12 December 2013 (UTC) That site looks extremely suspicious. All of the pages contain the exact same text just with the supposed error code replaced by whatever you searched for. For example putting "err.php?wiki=WIKIPEDIA_REF_DESK" as the url brings up a page that talks about the "WIKIPEDIA_REF_DESK" file system error and offers a download to fix the "error" (most likely a virus). 82.44.76.14 (talk) 20:08, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Sadly, it sounds like you may need the services of a Data Recovery professional. They're not cheap. (BTW, They're more likely to be successful the less you mess with the card.) APL (talk) 17:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC) I agree that you should not write anything to the card, and certainly don't format it (though a low level format would probably not delete the pictures). There may be no need to pay anyone to recover images from the card, because there are various free programmes that will attempt this for you. I've been using "PC Inspector: Smart Recovery" by CONVAR for many years, and it has seldom failed to recover lost pictures. Here's the CNET download. It's not particularly user-friendly, and it's extremely slow, but it works! I've had it find pictures that I deleted years ago! Ask here if you need guidance on using it. Dbfirs 17:11, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Before LUUWDA tries that, mightn't it be better to make an image of the entire card? LUUWDA, it sounds like you're a Windows user; I don't know if you have access to a Linux system, but if you know someone who does, you might have him/her use the dd command to copy the whole thing including partition table (that is, something like dd if=/dev/sdc ... rather than dd if=/dev/sdc1 ...; the latter would attempt to copy a partition but not the partition table). Make sure the partition is not mounted when you try it. Then you could play all sorts of games on the image, without worrying about doing further damage to the data on the card. --Trovatore (talk) 20:19, 12 December 2013 (UTC) I don't use Linux, but does that command copy sectors independently of the file table? (If so, then it would certainly be useful, and I'd like to try it myself.) The only problem would be that if the file table is corrupt, then special software would still be needed to recreate a file for each picture. Dbfirs 23:34, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Just another thought. I wonder if you accidentally tried to write to the card from your computer. Sometimes this is successful, but I've had so much trouble when trying to write to a camera-formatted card (getting symptoms very similar to yours but without the 65535 error), that I now adopt the policy: Never write to a camera-formatted card; always copy pictures to the hard drive before editing them. Dbfirs 17:29, 12 December 2013 (UTC) 65535 = binary 1111111111111111 = -1 in sixteen bits, so really this is just "error -1" and might not mean anything beyond "error". Card Zero (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC) ## Identifying best Big-O hello, i got another question. i was given this multiple choice question on a test: Identify the best Big-O when inserting a new element as the largest item in an ordered collection. The three collections are: ArrayList, LinkedList and TreeSet. Assume that you already know its target location and the fastest possible algorithm for the given collection constraints. ArrayList LinkedList TreeSet a) O(n) O(1) O(1) b) O(logn) O(n) O(logn) c) O(1) O(n) O(logn) d) O(1) O(1) O(logn) e) none of the above d) was the correct answer, but i dont understand why. What about a), where TreeSet and LinkedList are O(1)? And here was another similar question: Identify the best Big-O when inserting a new element as the smallest item in an ordered collection. The three collections are: ArrayList, LinkedList and TreeSet. Assume the fastest possible algorithm for the given collection constraints. ArrayList LinkedList TreeSet a) O(n) O(1) O(1) b) O(logn) O(n) O(logn) c) O(1) O(n) O(logn) d) O(1) O(1) O(logn) e) none of the above The answer was e), none of the above, with the big-O's being O(n) for ArrayList, O(1) for LinkedList, and O(logn) for TreeSet. Where do these answers come from? Do I just have to memorize big-O's?Sdjkgkdjfag999 (talk) 17:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC) You either have to memorize them - or understand how the underlying algorithms actually work and figure it out from there. If you're discussing this as a programmer, then you should certainly understand how each algorithm works and from there you can easily understand which O value is the appropriate one. One word of caution - it's dangerous to assume that (say) an O(logn) algorithm is faster than (say) an O(n) algorithm because sometimes the complexity of one "step" of the O(logn) approach may be more than that of the O(n) approach and end up running even more slowly! These time estimations have to be taken with several grains of salt in many cases. So using words like "fastest" or "best" is dangerous! SteveBaker (talk) 21:44, 12 December 2013 (UTC) ## Get thee behind me, SATA! For a heavy user of Photoshop, would it make sense to invest in a solid state drive that used PCI-Express (such as the RAIDR Express PCIe SSD say), rather than a SATA connected SSD? Hcobb (talk) 19:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC) When working in Photoshop, are your file sizes in the multi-gigabyte range? --209.203.125.162 (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC) It's that the user has to work through a camera-load of files at a time to pick the right one to work with and she mostly uses Adobe Lightroom. Hcobb (talk) 21:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC) # Science # December 8 ## Ulysses butterfly If the Ulysses butterfly is only found in Australia, New Guinea and the Solomons according to the article, then how did two of them wind up being photographed in Vienna as the main page picture says? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:10, 8 December 2013 (UTC) Click on the picture. ([7]) It says it was taken at a butterfly zoo. This makes good sense from the point of a view of a photographer looking for beautiful pictures like this, because he can take shots any time of year, in comfortable circumstances, with freshly eclosed butterflies that don't have any nasty little nicks and faded spots. A purist might argue it is not a spontaneous ecological environment, however. Wnt (talk) 02:35, 8 December 2013 (UTC) ## Native North American genetics I was reading an article this evening and there was the following statement: " Natives possess a genetic marker that enables them to better endure starvation conditions. The same marker also makes them more susceptible to alcohol . . . " The "drunken Indian" stereotype aside, is there any fact associated with this statement? 173.35.158.194 (talk) 05:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC) Yes, in fact many American Indians lack liver enzymes that break down alcohol -- which means they get drunk easier, stay drunk longer and are more likely to become alcoholics. 2601:9:3200:467:5527:C9C7:A04:2CD5 (talk) 05:26, 8 December 2013 (UTC) But I don't see why that would help them to survive long periods without food. StuRat (talk) 10:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC) The "endure starvation conditions" sounds like the "thrifty gene hypothesis" purporting to explain the high prevalence of genes for diabetes (studies were performed on Native Americans, Inuits, etc., newly exposed to Western diets. But different genes are involved; it's not the same as alcohol dehydrogenase deficiency. And it's also not proven. Pima Indians are particularly affected. (And I'd like to note in passing that I think the original article was a little "loose" in the use of the term "marker": for me, a "marker" indicates a condition but doesn't cause it; it's something that correlates with the genetic anomaly being discussed, rather than being that anomaly per se.) - Nunh-huh 12:00, 8 December 2013 (UTC) There seems to be some confusion in third thread, particularly in the first answer. Alcohol flush reaction is prevalent among East Asians particularly those of Han Chinese descent. I'm not aware it's prevalent among Native Americans nor does our article suggest it is. In particular, AFAIK and supported by the article it's not generally associated with increased levels of alcoholism rather reduced levels. The most likely reason is because it makes the undesired effects of drinking alcohol much more acutely felt. In fact, as per our article, it possibly also producesreduces (sorry that got screwed up in one of my edits) the desired effects of drinking alcohol in some cases (there appear to be multiple genes with multiple alleles involved). From a few simple searches, I found [8] which suggests that Native Americans do not generally have the alleles associated with the flush reaction, and those that do often show the same trends, i.e. lower levels of alcoholism. Notably the study also suggests the reasons for the higher levels of alcholism among native American populations are not that well known and have no clear genetic cause. It was from 2007 [9] so it may be outdated (I didn't look much more) or it could be simply wrong, but my guess is it's probably still largely correct. But even if we have better evidence now, given the possibly great diversity and complexity, it would be wise to be cautious with any research which appears to have identified a causal factor. Considering this, I don't think I would trust any source which talks about markers making them susceptible to alcohol. As Nunh-huh has said, the use of the term marker also seems rather unclear. (And I would note even if they had only identified a marker, nowadays it would not generally be that hard to find putative genes involved.) And I'm further in agreement with Nunh-huh (as is our article) that the thrify gene hypothesis is still fairly contentious, and suggested to exist among several other populations besides certain native American ones. And I'm not sure that it's generally linked to higher levels of alcoholism. Nil Einne (talk) 14:01, 8 December 2013 (UTC) ## Endoplanet I've seen exoplanets reported here and there. I was just wondering if there was such a thing as an endoplanet? Simply south...... eating lexicological sandwiches for just 7 years 14:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC) An exoplanet is outside the Solar System so an "endoplanet" would be inside the Solar System, but the term isn't used. They are called Solar System planets, or usually just planets when the context is clear. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:45, 8 December 2013 (UTC) For internal planets, see the hemorrhoid belt, inside the orbit of Uranus. μηδείς (talk) 01:09, 9 December 2013 (UTC) Medeis FTW. I shot milk out my nose. And wasn't drinking milk. --Jayron32 03:38, 9 December 2013 (UTC) That's not funny, Jayron. When I was in fourth grade, my best friend's little brother made me laugh so hard while I was eating over that I sprayed milk evenly over every surface in the kitchen, including the ceiling. The only thing that saved me from a fatal beating was that I was not a family member--I was simply sent home, and left gladly, and quickly. The tableau is burnt into my visual cortex. μηδείς (talk) 05:21, 9 December 2013 (UTC) ## Repairing Things in Space If you're on the International Space Station, chances are you may break something. How do you repair things? What kind of glue can you use? I think most objects on the ISS are made of metal, glass, plastic or rubber. You may use Pritt to glue paper. But it can't be used on anything other than paper. Water-based white glue works well on woods. I guess there are no wooden chairs on the ISS. Many other glues release solvents. They may be hazardous in a space station. Crazy glue has very low surface tension. It can form tiny floating droplets. I guess it is not a good idea. Rubber cement smells really bad. Hot glue may be useful. However, they are very heavy and they may catch fire. On the other hand, they are not very strong. Epoxy glue takes much efforts to mix. This can be difficult when you're floating. -- Toytoy (talk) 15:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC) Krazy glue (cyanoacrylate) comes in different formulations, some of which are pretty thick, and I think would be suitable. I don't know how they actually do it, though. Looie496 (talk) 15:19, 8 December 2013 (UTC) The real answer is, by spending millions of man-hours designing parts that never break, because it's nearly impossible to repair things once they're on the ISS. Of course there are toolkits, zip-ties, replacement modules for critical pieces; but most stuff stays broken until a replacement piece arrives on the next cargo mission. Here's a NASA video about repairing a minor water-leak in a space suit: note how they keep mentioning "since last summer," because the leak didn't get fixed for months. I'll see if I can find a good interview or article about the ammonia leak that happened on ISS many months ago which was actually a potential risk to astronaut safety. Nimur (talk) 15:30, 8 December 2013 (UTC) ...Here we go, repaired after Expedition 35 arrived. And, WP:WHAAOE: International Space Station maintenance. Nimur (talk) 15:33, 8 December 2013 (UTC) (ec) Regarding epoxys, you don't need to mix them manually. They make mixing nozzles (basically a tube with a bunch of internal back and forth wiggly bits [10]) that go on the front of dual syringe epoxy tubes . They're not ideal for your typical junk-drawer epoxy usage, as they're single use only (the glue will set inside), but if you're in a multi-billion dollar space station in zero-G using a specially formulated epoxy, having a single-use-only dispenser isn't all that much of a drawback. -- 162.238.241.136 (talk) 15:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC) There's also the sort of 2-part adhesives used to repair and modify circuit boards in the electronic industry. These consist of the adhesive which comes as a viscous or fairly runny liquid depend on grade, and a spray on accelerator. Proviing the applied adhesive is kept to less than about 1 mm thick, the spray on accelerant works fine. No need for manual mixing. 120.145.176.236 (talk) 00:44, 9 December 2013 (UTC) If selecting adhesives for ISS use, I would certainly be concerned about toxic vapors, such as come from the otherwise excellent adhesive E6000. Various companies advertise adhesives for space use, which work over a wide temperature range and do not outgas beyiond strict limits, See Masterbond, Wacker adhesives, An article by someone at Masterbond [11] notes that in low Earth orbit, atomic oxygen degrades adhesives used outside, and that cyanoacrylates are known for outgassing. The article discusses the use of various 2 part and one part epoxies in space. A distinction should be made between those to be used inside the craft and those outside, and use at high temperature versus room or low temperature, the exposure to solvents or acid, and the surface characteristics (porous or smooth). Adhesives for use outside might well be different from those to be used inside due to having to setup in vacuum and the high temperature range, as well as the UV radiation. RTV adhesive was used to hold space shuttle tiles in place, and if I recall correctly NASA had it in mind for possible in-spaced repairs. It can set up in vacuum and has a wide temperature range. Tape can also be handy. Duct tape was useful on the Apollo 13, to improvise a connection between different shaped air-handling components. It is still used in space, as is self stick Velcro, per [12]. Gorilla Tape seems to be a superior present-day duct tape. Rescue Tape is a self-fusing silicone tape useful from -65C to 230C and resistant to a wide variety of chemicals, so useful for patching hoses. Electrical tape could be useful for repairing and insulating conductors, as would heat-shrink tubing. A small kit of tapes and adhesives could be a lifesaver. Edison (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2013 (UTC) Mir once tested a glue which could be used to seal tiny cracks in the hull. And of course there's Pritt: "successfully tested on board the International Space Station and was awarded Space Proof Quality". I assume they keep some aboard in case a Post-it note fails suddenly... Ssscienccce (talk) 08:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC) And the NASA website says that Rubbn’Repair and Rec’Repair are the commercial versions of technology developed through a NASA partnership for repairs on board of the ISS. Quote: "To that end, NASA funded the design of a simple and reusable patch repair system for servicing structural components in space." Ssscienccce (talk) 10:40, 9 December 2013 (UTC) Somewhat related, at least on the subject of how hard repairs are on the ISS, I rember watching the NASA channel as they were broadcasting the installation of some mundane piece of equipment live. It was something like a metal rail on an interior wall for holding another piece of equipment. They stripped one of the screws, and then it took at least half an hour (I think more) for them to decide the best course of action to continue the installation. If they had damaged screw more, then it could have ended up stuck there and drilling out a bad screw isn't something you want to do in microgravity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katie Ryan A (talkcontribs) 12:54, 9 December 2013 (UTC) I recall that Apollo 13 carried duct tape (they call it "Grey Tape") which was the key to solving their famous air filter problem. Velcro is also used for some repairs. The ISS evidently has a sufficient supply of both.SteveBaker (talk) 15:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC) Talking of 'quick' repairs, I have never seen the ISS astronauts on the televised down links -chewing gum – that ubiquitous substance that can pug almost any leak and stick all most anything together, on everything from the Enola Gay to a nuclear submarine. What has NASA got against chewing gum. It served the military so well for the last half of the century? NASA spent millions developing a pen that could write in space and the Russian's used a pencil. At least Chris Hadfield had the sense to take up an acoustic, sans tremolo arm nor wah-wah. --Aspro (talk) 17:48, 9 December 2013 (UTC) That story about NASA spending millions on the space pen is complete and utter nonsense. The company that developed the pen had already spent the money doing the development of a very robust pen that would write upside-down, with no intention of them ever being used in space. NASA came along several years later and bought 400 of these already-on-sale pens at below normal retail price (less than$3 each - which isn't bad for a luxury pen!) The Russians (just like any other sane space-going people) did not give out pencils to their cosmonauts because in zero g, the dust and debris from a pencil would get into delicate switches and risk shorting them out - the Russians actually bought the EXACT same pens that the NASA astronauts carried - I don't know how much they paid for them. This is a great story - but just like so many others, it's complete bullshit. SteveBaker (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Why the hysteria SB? I linked it to a Wikipedia section (did I not) which begins and I quote: A common urban legend states.... Also, 3$for a pen! You where ripped off at even 2$. A Pencil... 25 cents.--Aspro (talk) 22:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
You said it was true - while linking to an article that (correctly) says that it's not true. I can only conclude that you didn't read the article you linked to until I told you that you made a mistake. No hysteria - just the facts. SteveBaker (talk) 22:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
No way did I say it was true. I gave a lead for those that where interest to follow up (with a come-on that YOU bit at)!
Oh! An' by the way. Your bit about the dust and debris from a pencil would get into delicate switches and risk shorting them out. Let's have the last word from Chris Hadfield. Not a US citizen... -one understands- but never-the-less a commander of the International Space Station – so he must know his stuff – yeah!? Quote: One user asks why astronauts carry pencils, to which Chris replies: 'pencils work in all attitudes and pressures, good in the cockpit. Unquote [13]. Trying to gain scientific knowledge through watching TV programs like Lost in space is not the way to go – after all, they where lost in space “Danger, Will Robinson -DANGER You are holding a pencil. If that graphite get into my circuits you will be doomed, to recording another 20 episodes.” (NASA has a channel where you can watch ISS pretty much constantly and see what their doing and what they are holding in their hands)--Aspro (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
So you expect us to believe that your editing strategy when answering questions is to write complete nonsense in the hope that this will provoke people to read your links? Either you're lying to cover your blatant mistake or you're one of the worst, most irresponsible editors we have here on the reference desks. You choose. SteveBaker (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
It is not complete nonsense. One theory as to why so meny Nobel prize winners where born and educated in Europe, is that their education system provokes students to question revived dogma. Many other people read WP Ref Desk and we don't wont to mislead them to believe every editors (not naming names) comments as the gospel truth -do we? You choose.--Aspro (talk) 17:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
If you'd read the article you'd linked to, you'd see that NASA was actually concerned about the exact things you just mocked Steve for describing! 75.69.10.209 (talk) 01:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
These were historic concerns. Like scientists of the 1800's saying a train will not be able to travel faster than 50 mph or the passengers will suffocate from not being able to breath. See my next statement.--Aspro (talk) 17:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
(purely speculation, but:) I assume NASA looks at very improbable risks and multiple levels of safety, potentially reconciling these statements. I certainly would not want to have to find a little piece of broken pencil lead that flies off in zero gravity, nor to absolutely guarantee that it can't possibly get crushed into a conductive layer when it gets caught in a dial as it is turned... Wnt (talk) 03:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Exactly. A solid effort at improving the safety of spaceflight is to reduce every risk you can - even if it's a small one. Sure, the odds of a pencil shedding conductive material into a switch is small - but replacing a 50 cent pencil with a really high quality $3 ballpoint pen is a reasonable decision. I'd also point out that Apollo 11 nearly came to a very unfortunate end because of a broken lunar ascent motor circuit breaker - and was saved by using a pen tip to activate it. (There is some debate about whether it was one of the fancy "space pens" or just a regular felt-tip marker that did the job.) If they had taken pencils to the moon instead, there could very easily be two dead astronauts sitting on the lunar surface right now. It's no surprise then that NASA considers very carefully what goes into every gram of material we haul up into space and chooses the best option in every case. Sure, the difference between sending astronauts up with a$3 pen instead of a 50 cent pencil is small in terms of safety...but it's also negligible in terms of cost. Multiply that by the hundreds of thousands of similar decisions that they take for every mission and the results add up. Space travel is dangerous enough even with all of those careful precautions - but if they simply ignored them all, the total increase in mission risk would be appreciable.

## Medieval city density

From the first look the density in European medieval cities must be much lower than in modern ones. On the other hand despite of skyscrapers and multistory buildings modern cities have a lot of empty space which was absent in medieval ones (highways, broad streets, parks, etc.). In a stereotypical medieval city the houses was relatively small, they sat tight to each other, streets was narrow. Even if we imagine a city where a typical house was one-stored and occupied area of 100 sq m (quite a big house even by the modern standards), reserving 20% of the city area for streets, churches, storehouses and other buildings, we'd have 8000 houses per sq km. Bearing in mind that a typical family consisted of 5-6 family members we get 40000-48000 per sq km! It's much bigger than of modern New-York (10000) or Paris (20000). I can't believe that a medieval city was so densely populated and big. Medieval Paris of the 13th century with the area about 6 sq km should have at least 240000! It's unbelievable! But I do not understand if the actual density was lower how a city was built. If we accept quite realistic 1000 people per sq km we get only 200 houses, then each house occupied 5000 sq m. It's also unbelievable! The houses should stood at the distance of 60 m from each other. Even if we multiply the density by 5, we nevertheless get 1000 houses with 1000 sq m per each. It's no less unbelievable. There should be too much empty space. It's more like a big village than a city. Where is the mistake?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Partly you are neglecting the fact that not every building is a house. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
According to medieval censuses, Paris did indeed have over 200 000 people (although in the 14th century, not the 13th - see fr:Démographie de Paris). I assume this means Paris within the wall of Philip Augustus, but maybe the censuses counted people in the suburbs, I'm not sure. However, a typical house was not one-storied. A typical medieval timber-framed house was 2 or 3 stories. The biggest one I've seen is the fr:Maison d'Adam in Angers, which is six stories. Imagine how many people could have lived in that one house. They were like small apartment buildings, and medieval cities were absolutely packed with them. They also put houses anywhere they could conceivably build a house, no matter how dumb or dangerous. Even bridges were filled with houses. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
But Paris has always been being the biggest city or least one of the biggest cities of Europe. But what about many other ordinary cities? Did they have really 50000 per sq km? Or 20000 as modern Paris (the most densely populated city of Europe)? I don't believe that so many people could live then at all.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
What I wanted to say. If we acccept stereotypical medieval tight and dense city planning, we should accept very big numbers for density, bigger than for modern super-megapolises and much bigger for the absolute majority of modern smaller cities and towns. Then any medieval relatively not too big in territory city (1-3 sq km) should have very big population, bigger than modern cities of the same area. So we then must accept that modern cities in spite of urbanization are quite spacious. But if we accept relatively small numbers for density in medieval cities, we should somehow explain how a city was planned.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
They weren't planned, is the first answer ;-)
Remember that while cities had very dense housing (think modern slums and you get the idea) they also would have had a lot of other things in them. Right now, dense urban housing does not usually contain stables, sewage pits, light industry, street markets, graveyards, fortifications, etc etc - but a medieval city would have done, in addition to the housing. This would have taken up a lot of space. Andrew Gray (talk) 10:46, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
There would also be lots of churches and monasteries. That would take up a lot of room where there might otherwise be houses, but going back to Paris, imagine the area around Notre Dame today. There's a huge square in front and a big park behind it. In medieval Paris, that space would have been filled with stuff - houses, shops, etc. People and animals might live even inside the big churches. Houses were built right up against the defensive walls and even in top of them. There's no public parks, greenspace, anything like that.
There might be a bit of planning, especially if the city had been founded as a Roman colony. But even then, there would likely be only one north-south road and one east-west road, and the rest of the city would grow rather anarchically. In a place like Paris this isn't really visible anymore. The city where I lived in France, Nantes, still has a very visible anarchic medieval street pattern, so you can tell exactly where the medieval boundaries were. And there were people packed in everywhere, which is why medieval cities were notoriously unclean and prone to fires and outbreaks of disease. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
In many medieval cities, even bridges had housing on it. Consider the original Pont Notre-Dame, which was lined with 5 storey houses, or the original London Bridge which was similarly built upon. From the look of the 1616 engraving in our article, it's difficult to see where people would even walk across the bridge given the density of housing. It appears people walked through tunnels under the house on the bridge it was so densely packed with houses. --Jayron32 13:39, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Contrary to popular belief there was actually a lot of green spaces in most medieval cities, even in places like Paris or London. These consisted mainly of garden patches, but some times even fields or pastures could be found, as there was a lot of livestock inside medieval cities as well (link, link). It should should also be taken into account that the average medieval household consisted of a lot more persons that the average modern household. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social Change in England C.1200 to 1580 by Christopher Dyer (p. 189) says that in 1400, within the walls of Winchester, a middle-sized English city, population density varied between 29 and 81 persons per acre. I'll leave you to do the metrication. Alansplodge (talk) 18:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Certainly medieval European cities were much denser (though also much smaller in area) than modern European cities. The buildings were packed together, streets were narrow, transportation infrastructure occupied much less space, and people lived several to a room in small rooms. While few buildings had more than 4 to 5 storeys, the same is actually true of a majority of buildings in modern European cities. High-rise residential buildings are outliers in modern Europe and are more than compensated by the areas of parks, parking structures, multi-lane roads, airports, seaports, and so on. Marco polo (talk) 19:19, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## Axis partition of Asia

According to our article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_power_negotiations_on_the_division_of_Asia_during_World_War_II the Wehrmacht proposed the following border for the division of Asia among Axis powers:
"along the eastern border of Iran, the northern border of Afghanistan, the western border of China up to Tannu Tuva, and then northwards along the Yenisei river to the Arctic Ocean."
Germany & Italy were to get Europe, Africa and Asia west of it while Japan would get Oceania and Asia east of it. I wanted to make a calculation of the areas of the two spheres of influence (Germany+Italy and Japan), excluding North and South America (Germany gets Iceland but not Greenland and Japan gets Hawaii but not Alaska). My main problem is about the partition of Russia along the Yenisei river. Is there a way to quantify the area or Russia or of the Krasnoyarsk Krai east and west of it? --151.41.165.155 (talk) 16:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

You could do so with mapping software. Marco polo (talk) 19:06, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

# Language

Look up Wiktionary:Information desk in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Look up Wiktionary:Translation requests in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

# December 6

## Opposite of philanthropy?

Opposite of philanthropy? --78.156.109.166 (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Misanthropy. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
One might be tempted to say capitalism (using the popular rather than the literal meaning of "philanthropy"), or profiteering for a more politically neutral term. See also war profiteering, cartel, monopoly, Rachmanism, etc. Tevildo (talk) 13:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
In fact, Exploitation is probably the best single antonym. Tevildo (talk) 13:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how "profiteering" is more neutral than "capitalism". Many capitalists have been known to be philanthropists as well. Bill Gates, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, I intended profiteering to refer to general abuse of a dominant market position to make more money than is "fair", in some abstract sense. However, my main point is that misanthropy is not (in popular usage) the opposite of philanthropy. For example, Howard Hughes is the very type and acme of a misanthropist, but he still engaged in the very philanthropic act of endowing the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. And Peter Rachman himself was, so I understand, a very outgoing, affable and socially-adept person - the opposite of a misanthrope - but nobody would describe him as a philanthropist. Tevildo (talk) 19:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
The term "capitalist" is not inherently negative except maybe to an avowed Marxist. Etymologically, "philanthropy" and "misanthropy" are opposites, but they're not really used that way nowadays. As I recall, even some Mafia figures were known to open soup kitchens and the like, and I'm not so sure "philanthropist" is the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of Al Capone. Really, an excellent illustration of the idea would be Ebenezer Scrooge, before and after. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Is Gates a capitalist? I think the term has two quite distinct meanings, and I'm not sure Gates actually qualifies on either count. One meaning is "philosophical supporter of the free market", and I think he's at best lukewarm on that. The other meaning is "someone in the finance business", which as far as I know applies to him only in the sense that he's an investor. --Trovatore (talk) 03:56, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
If I correctly interpreted the dense prose from century-old books, capitalists are the people who benefit from the money-commodity-moremoney exchange, also known as M-C-M'. Σσς(Sigma) 04:41, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Microsoft is a for-profit company, last I heard. Maximizing profits, i.e. accumulating more and more money (i.e. more and more "capital") is the essence of capitalism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, different people use words different ways, but to me the essence of capitalism is freedom of exchange. It's not clear to me that Gates is a big supporter of that. There are lots of people who make lots of money in radically anti-capitalist countries. --Trovatore (talk) 05:18, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
In a capitalist system, there is a natural progression from true "free market" (many small firms), to a relatively few large firms (monopolistic competition), or maybe only one significant one (monopoly or near-monopoly). That's what Gates has done. I'm not sure what you mean by "freedom of exchange", but the bottom line is that successful people and companies don't want ongoing competition, they want to defeat that competition and be kings of their particular hills. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:28, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
The point is, "capitalist" doesn't mean "businessperson". Just doesn't. There are two major senses. Ideologically, it means a classical liberal, and I don't think Gates is one (I think he might even be a Democrat). Professionally, it means someone who lends money, which of course he does because he's an investor and a big one, but it isn't his profession. --Trovatore (talk) 08:45, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
You're talking libertarian idealism. I'm talking reality. But maybe you could give me an example of a "true" capitalist. And I don't mean philosophers writing books, I mean practical capitalists, i.e. those who accumulate capital (keep in mind that "capital" and "money" are synonyms in this context). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Trovatore is correct there are at least two senses of the word, and it's clear Gates is not a free market capitalist. He is obviously a capitalist if you define that as someone who derives his wealth from return on capital, whether directly held or invested. μηδείς (talk) 01:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
To me, capitalism is about money and business - beginning and end of story. I'd like to hear of any other practical application. Feel free to educate me. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:03, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't have Google. --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Can you explain that claim? Denmark has free speech, and you have access to the internet. Are you in prison, or are you a child on a computer with parental controls? There are other search engines as well. μηδείς (talk) 23:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

## What is the name of...

a glass that can make things look bigger? I've forgotten. --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean a Magnifying glass (convex lens), or something less obvious? Dbfirs 20:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Magnifying glass was what I was looking for, I figured it out by myself shortly after I wrote my question. --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, memory is strange. I increasingly have the same problem. Admitting that I can't remember something seems to trigger my brain to make the appropriate connections that were somehow missing when I was actively searching for them. Dbfirs 09:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Can't even read your text just above, because my drug causes memory and concentration lapses (problems). But I would have them (although much less intense) even without the drug. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM --78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 7

## 17th century French: "Tracy"

Can someone translate to English the sub caption for this map of western New France (lower right corner)? [39] What does "TRACY" mean, here? Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Les nations de Tracy "the Nations of Tracy". I do not know what it means, maybe something connected to him.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Oh, I see. So, its a list of "nations": (seemingly odd, that the other two, Illinois and Iroquois, are native tribes). Can you make out the rest of it, "people" and so forth? Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
A nation is "[a]n historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity and/or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture" (Wiktionary), so it is not uncommon to find "tribes" of people referred to as "nations". Note that some of the aboriginal peoples in Canada are termed "First Nations". — Cheers, JackLee talk 16:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I do not find it odd that they are listed as nations, but that Tracy was among them, but it looks like there is an answer for that below. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of moving that page to reflect his full name, which up till now failed to include the Tracy part we're discussing here. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 16:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Here's an early-18th-century book that lists the "Nations de Tracy" among various native tribes ("diverse peoples in Canada and Louisiana"}. The map you're inquiring about shows them as inhabiting a rather extensive region around the western Great Lakes, but I'm having trouble finding further mentions of them under this name. Deor (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Most helpful. Yes, it looks like the "Nations de Tracy" are around western Lake Superior; the "Nations de Ilinois", around Lake Michigan; and the "Cinc Nations" Iroquois in the east on this map. Thx. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
It's probably "Cinq Nations", meaning Five Nations. --Bowlhover (talk) 05:31, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is the transcription:

PARTIE OCCIDENTALE du CANADA ou de la NOUVELLE FRANCE où sont les Nations des ILINOIS, de TRACY, les IROQUOIS, et plusieurs autres Peuples ;

Avec la LOUISIANE Nouvellement decouverte etc.
Dressée sur les Memoires le plus Nouveaux.
Par le P. Coronelli Cosmographe de la Sér.[énissime] Repib.[lique] de VENISE Corrigée et augmentée par le Sr.[sieur] Tillemon ; et Dédiée À Monsieur l'Abbé BAUDARD À PARIS
Chez J.B. Nolin Sur le Quay de l'Horloge du Palais Vers le Pont Neuf à l'Enseigne de la Place des Victoires
Avec Privilege du Roy

1688

Translation a little later if somebody does not outrun me already.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

With regard to "Ser.", see the first bulleted item in Most Serene Republic#Historical states. Deor (talk) 17:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
The nations of Tracy are apparently simply the nations living around Lake Superior, which was first named by the Jesuits "Lac Tracy", according to our article Lake Superior. According to this source, the Jesuits named the lake after "Monsieur de Tracy," apparently Alexandre de Prouville de Tracy. So Lüboslóv's conjecture seems to be correct. Marco polo (talk) 22:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Ah, that might also help explain "Ilinois" then, as that was also an early name for Lake Michigan. Thanks, Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is the translation:

The Western part of Canada or the New France where the nations of Illinois, of Tracy [Lake Superior], the Iroquois and many other peoples inhabit.

With recently discovered Louisiana
Drawn according to the newest reports
By P. Coronelli, a cosmographe of the Most Serene Republic of Venice
Corrected and augmented by Sir Tillemon. And dedicated to Monsieur abbot Baudard
[Printed at] J.B. Nolin in the Quai de l'Horloge of the Palace across the Pont Neuf under the sign of the Place des Victoires

With the privilege of the King

I am not sure about the line Chez J.B Nolin..., it looks like an address. Espesially I doubt what means à l'Enseigne de la Place des Victoires as the place is far away from the Cité.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:16, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you have got that line more or less correct. Chez means "at the office or place of business of", and in 17th-century books and documents it was common to refer to a place by its "sign" (I assume this refers to a signboard), presumably because at that time there was no numbering system for buildings. Thus, the line suggests that J. B. Nolin had a business along the Quai de l'Horloge which was marked by a signboard with an image of the Place des Victoires on it. — Cheers, JackLee talk 17:29, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## Just say the word

If it takes more than just saying "I insult you" to insult someone, or "I kill you" to actually kill someone, or "I hypothesise" to wax hypothetical, why is "I apologise" or "My apologies" considered sufficient for an apology, or "Congratulations!" sufficient to congratulate someone, or "My condolences" sufficient to express one's sorrow? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 16:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

See speech act, and specifically performatives, which are things like "I hereby declare you man and wife" or "I dub thee Sir Jack". This is actually an important topic in philosophy and linguistics. Steven Pinker goes on about it in various places. μηδείς (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Your examples have legal meaning (in some contexts), but JackofOz's examples normally just inform someone of a feeling the speaker already had. "I apologize" doesn't make the speaker regret their action, "congratulations" doesn't make the speaker happy for the listener, etc. JackofOz's question doesn't seem like a linguistic question to me. It's a sociological question about what insults, apologies, etc., actually are, and really it belongs on the humanities desk -- BenRG (talk) 12:59, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
It reminds me of when people write to newspapers etc saying "I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about [something or other]", to which my response would be: "well, go on then". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 20:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Kind of "polite anger", which Monty Python used to satirize from time to time. "I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about that last sketch. Many of my friends are lumberjacks, and only a few of them are transvestites..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Of course this being Wikipedia the act of typing "I insult you" on a talk page is going to be considered a person attack and involve a trip to WP:ANI. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 13:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
The statement "I insult you" as a standalone comment is not an actual attack. It's like the standalone statement "I am lying", which likewise means nothing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
That's an interesting question. What if I said, "I hereby insult you"? That might actually be insulting, and a good line for Steve Martin or John Cleese. μηδείς (talk) 18:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Good one. Or taking it a step further, "I am hereby issuing you a legal threat." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:00, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Another Monty Python reference: "I fart in your general direction". Just saying those words does not have the same effect as doing it. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:45, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 8

## ED-earned

What does "ED-earned" mean: [40]?174.3.125.23 (talk) 00:30, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

In this context, Emergency department. Tevildo (talk) 00:52, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
What is earned?174.3.125.23 (talk) 01:37, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
wikt:earned. Tevildo (talk) 02:24, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
It still doesn't make much sense to this reader. Is money one earns from working as a doctor in an ED somehow different from money one earns as a doctor in some other place? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:41, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
It's a human interest story, of interest to humans daydreaming about marketing their own strange new product. Here is how they financed their product, the story says: by working as doctors. Make what you will of that - you might observe that they worked hard in their jobs but still found time to give attention to the product, or that they were highly paid, or that they made all the money themselves and didn't need luck or an inheritance. So it seems to be saying "you could do this too" - if you're really determined and have some significant income to put into it, you too could help protect the world's bananas.  Card Zero  (talk) 03:12, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## Plural of razzia

Subtitling a documentary film about the Holocaust in the Nazi-occupied Netherlands, I need the plural form of razzia, the term used by the Dutch for a roundup of civilians by security forces. -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:38, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The plural in Dutch is "razzia's" (see also Dutch_grammar#Plural. The English plural is "razzias", the plural in German is "Razzien" or, rarer, "Razzias"). ---Sluzzelin talk 09:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
The original Italian plural is razzie, although that may not be what you are looking for. μηδείς (talk) 18:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
A plurality of Ratzis:
--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Medeis gave the correct plural for Italian, but note that razzia (see that link's English and French section) probably did not enter English via Italian, but via French, nor is it of Italian origin. It's borrowed from Algerian Arabic, ... perhaps, see also Ghazi for a hint at "archaic Portuguese" :-S Better references are needed, perhaps. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes. I suppose I should of said whose form, razzia, originates in Italian. I wasn't intending to give the etymology of the Italian word. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
You shouldn't of said "should of". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
migod you didn't ort to write a sentence like that jack. Tevildo (talk) 22:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
It's curious whether this is the first time Jack has come acrost an item like this and not realized it was bait meant for him personally. μηδείς (talk) 01:13, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
So, there it is. The nasty baitrice admits to violating the sacred ref desk space for the performance of a childish campaign of personal vindictiveness. So much for those years of stuff about the rules, and all those lectures about thresholds of appropriate behaviour. But, Mandela-like, I forgive you all your grotesque and odious excesses. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 06:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
@Sluzzelin: Better references? wikt:de:Razzia has 50 (fifty) references. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:10, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Awesome! Here I generally link to foreign language entries on English wiktionary, when they exist, so I hadn't even seen that article. Thanks, Pp.p! ---Sluzzelin talk 21:49, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 9

## Chinese search help needed

Could someone please look for Chinese-language sources on the Four Happiness Boys? If it's what it's cracked up to be, it should have a lot more sources in Chinese than in English, and further sources are definitely needed. Nyttend (talk) 02:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

It's called 四喜娃娃 in Chinese, and "four happiness boys" is a terrible translation. 娃娃 means "small child", but can either be male or female, and is in fact usually female. 喜 does loosely mean "happiness", but more accurately means joy or good fortune in this context. Even the "four" is translated ambiguously--there are in fact two children, and the 四 unambiguously refers to the number of joys, not the number of children.
Anyhow, the Chinese Wikipedia has an article on this: [41]. So does Baidu: [42]. I also managed to find an English source here. If you search the Chinese name using Google images, you'll find a lot of examples. Here is one of them. Notice how it depicts two girls, not four boys. --Bowlhover (talk) 01:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## Learning another improves one’s own usage?

I read somewhere (can’t remember where) that learning another language improves the learner’s usage or comprehension of her or his own language. Is this true? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 12:59, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

It could work out that way, if it makes the learner more conscious of matters of grammar and usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
It can also help when looking for translations of words from the new language you encounter new words in your native language. Richard Avery (talk) 16:09, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes. That would be part of "comprehension", if you include "expanded vocabulary" under that topic. It's interesting to study a Romance language and see how many words you "know already but didn't know it." An example is the Spanish word for thoughtful, pensativo. The lesser-used English synonym for thoughtful is "pensive". Not a term the average Joe uses very often, but it might help comprehension. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:16, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
You have to be careful in using apparent cognates, of course. I'm reminded of Spanish-speakers I've known who say "traduce" instead of "translate" because the Spanish verb is traducir. However, the obscure English cognate "traduce" doesn't really mean "translate", it's more like "defame". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:49, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Wavelength (talk) 20:58, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Etymology Online says "traduce" comes from the Latin traducere.[43] If you look traducir on the Real Academia site, it says traducir likewise comes from the Latin traducere.[44]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:25, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
See Impact of Second Language Learning on First Language and Why learn a foreign language? Benefits of bilingualism by Anne Merritt. Alansplodge (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
• Yes, it's definitely the case. Especially in the case of English as a mother tongue if you study a somewhat closely related Indo-European language, and not just in vocabulary. Although I could use the English verb tenses, the terms used to describe them, like "perfect" never made any sense to me until I studied French formally in high school. That first year of French was full of moments where things in grammar suddenly "clicked" for me, and I became a much better writer in English, with a better command over my choices. It's like going from knowing how to drive sitting in the seat to understanding how the gears and the steering mechanism and tires and so forth actually work, and applying that knowledge to what you know about the gear shift stick and the steering wheel.
You can't really form proper cnceptual abstractions unless you have at least two examples of the item you are trying to understand. Rules of grammar are pretty much meaningless words you memorize so long as you only know one language. Learning two or more languages gives you examples you can compare, analogize, and analyze abstractly. You'll also find studying logic and learning a computer language will also help, although a little less directly than will learning a natural language. In addition to the above links, I'd look at implicit learning (versus explicit learning, at second-language acquisition and at concept formation. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Medeis that it strengthens your command of English grammar to learn a kindred Indo-European language such as Latin, French, or German. I would argue that Latin and German are especially powerful. Latin helps you understand the roots of many English words and also the synthetic structures and categories that form the historic basis of English, even though English is a more isolating language. German is even more targeted at those synthetic root structures and categories, since it shares a more recent common ancestor with English. It also has many cognates with English words that offer insights into the original meanings of English words. However, there is also great value in learning a language from an unrelated family with radically different grammar, such as Mandarin Chinese. Studying Chinese, in addition to the intrinsic pleasure and utility of any foreign language, has given me a broader linguistic perspective on English and all of the European languages and how their strategies for making meaning contrast with other kinds of strategies. Marco polo (talk) 19:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I think that you could make the argument that the further away from English another language is, the more abstract the level of learning about language. Learning a romance or germanic language will help immensely with vocabulary and to an extent with grammar (especially a West Germanic or one of the Western Romance languages). Greek and Latin will give you the roots of the vocabulary, and a mastery of grammar. Russian, Hindi, Japanese, Turkish, Arabic and Hungarian will give you a grounding in comparative grammar and an implicit understanding of comparative linguistics. Learning a truly distant language, like Chinese, will give you a grounding in the structure of thought itself. μηδείς (talk) 19:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Another article that might interest you is multi-competence. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:41, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Personal observation: Yes, as others have noted, it helps quite a bit with understand the structure of your own language, and also with understanding the origins of your language's word-stock. However, there is a small however: It is a common experience, after full immersion in another language (at least, a reasonably closely related one), to invent words in your own language that never existed, and not to be quite sure whether they're real words or not. It's a minor drawback, easily corrected, and I certainly wouldn't give it much weight — overall, your competence in your native language is likely to improve. --Trovatore (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Personally not sure that's a drawback. See linguistic interference. μηδείς (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
See "Polyglotism" and "Cross-training" and "Multi-instrumentalist".
Wavelength (talk) 02:36, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for killjoying, but let me wedge myself into the discussion and break the unanimity. :) I think (and I encounter this opinion before), that to do something better you'd better to do it not other things. If you want to know your own language better, then learn it. Good grammar and reference books and active practice are quite good things. There was mentioned Latin, and I recalled this article: "Latin teaches you English." It may do so, but if you want to study English, study English, and you will come out ahead. For sheer vocabulary Latin confers a lot, on the other hand wide reading in English and use of the dictionary teaches you English fast enough. I'm quite agree.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I spoke perfect English before I ever formally studied another language, Ljuboslov. I actually had someone from the next town over ask me if I was English when I was in the 8th grade, presumably because of my speech. But none of my studying it for 8+ years had benefitted me. I remember being taught stress, and told to talk into my hand and feel the puffs. I remember being taught syllabification. I remember being taught the tenses. None of this made sense. "Computer" has only one stress, but three puffs. Once I was formally instructed on French it became possible to compare English and French, and understand the difference. Before that there was nothing to compare English to. I've also formally studied Russian, which has mad clear to me various aspects of verbal aspect and palatalization. Before that such terms were vague approximations and meaningless memorizations. Telling someone who hasn't learned another language to study' English is no different from telling them to memorize a list of labels they don't understand. μηδείς (talk) 05:36, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
While studying three (if not to count basic Latin) foreign languages my written Russian hadn't changed and was as bad as usual (though better than average). I was formally neither Slavist nor Russist but once I became very interested in Slavistics and Russistics and decided to study them by myself thoroughly and only then with a little written practice my Russian became much much better. And foreign languages didn't help at all. At least if they helped but I did not notice it, now I cannot formulate what their help was. Maybe I became more grammatically conscious but while Russian grammar is quite different, my consciousness is from read by me Russian grammar books not English, German or French ones. But I agree everyone has his own experiment.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## Film Footage

I'd like some help explaining the usage of "footage". I know film is measured in feet. You can have one foot of film or two feet of film. Additionally, one may have one foot of footage or two feet of footage. But you can't have two feet of "footages". And you can't have two separate individual (foots?) feet of footages. So is "footage" always used as a plural? Or do the singular and plural have the same word? What other types of words are like this and do they have a name? --209.203.125.162 (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

See mass noun. --Trovatore (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
You can say the films have different footages if you have to. μηδείς (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
You can't have two feet of anything plural. Film is also a mass noun (two feet of film) but can be countable (two films). This seems to make footage a superfluous word, see jargon, and for film footage, see pleonasm.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The term "footage" is typically used for a segment of a film, such as a particular scene, and was first used that way in 1916.[45]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, that's from the OED cite: "‘B. M. Bower’ Phantom Herd ii. 22 He visualized a stampede and the probable amount of footage it would require." Dbfirs 21:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps because "amount of film" might be misunderstood as a measurement taken sideways? "For a large stampede, we'd need to switch to 65mm!"  Card Zero  (talk) 01:27, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 10

## Are bands plural or nonlpural

What is the generally accepted form of verbs for groups on Wikipedia? For example do people use "Google are" or "Google is", "Nirvana were" or "Nirvana was" etc etc. teratogen (talk) 18:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Comparison of American and British English#Formal and notional agreement. Basically, if the group is British say are/were e.g. "The Beatles were" but if American say was/is, e.g. "Nirvana was". --Viennese Waltz 18:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Great, thank you! teratogen (talk) 18:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Americans also would say "The Beatles were...", because Beatles is plural. The difference shows up only when the band name is not obviously plural. --Trovatore (talk) 19:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Just to make it a bit clearer, American English agrees with the word not with what it represents. Thus, when discussing a band name with a singular gramatical form, American English will take the plural form if the word is itself plural, but singular form if the word itself is singular. Thus, "The Eagles are a band..." but "Grand Funk Railroad is a band..." In British English, the verb agrees with what is being represented, regardless of whether the word itself is plural or singular. Thus, since a musical group is multiple people, in British English the convention is to always use the plural form regardless of what the name itself is. Thus, "The Smiths are a band..." is correct, but so is "New Order are a band..." The second sounds odd to American ears because of the combination of a singular noun (order) with a plural verb (are); but in British English, since New Order is multiple people, it takes the plural verb (are). --Jayron32 19:24, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
This is not true. in British English the convention is to use singular or plural with singular-named collectives depending on whether the sense is the collective as a unit or as a multiple. So "New Order was formed in 19XX" is more natural than "were formed", but "New order play xxx" (not 'plays'). --ColinFine (talk) 00:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
So, Bahamas are a Canadian musician?  Card Zero  (talk) 02:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
No, because Bahamas is a person, not a collective. Different grammatical rules. --Jayron32 16:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
"Grand Funk Railroad is five people" - correct?  Card Zero  (talk) 19:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it's right to adopt North American usage for North American bands and British usage for British bands. (Who knows what they do in the Antipodes.) If you speak North American English, use North American grammar for all bands, including British ones. If you speak British English or a version of English with a similar grammar rule, apply that rule to all bands, British or American. If English is not your first language and you are asking this question, then it is probably time for you to choose one English variant or another and use it consistently. Marco polo (talk) 19:20, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
That's the rule if you are yourself American or British and are writing or speaking to a like-cultured audience. I say "New Order is one of my favorite bands from the 80's" all the time, because I am American and that's how my version of English works. I would never say "New Order are..." in any context. If someone is British, I would expect them to use the latter all the time. That's fine. The difference is that Wikipedia is written for an international audience who speak various forms of English, and as a result, conventions need to be established which are a) consistent and b) don't favor any one form of English. Thus the policy of WP:ENGVAR is the compromise we have reached; when speaking of subjects which have a connection to one particular culture, use the standard variety of English used by that culture. --Jayron32 19:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The funny thing is, I hear people on the news and radio using "are" for singular groups ALL the time! i.e. "Google are", "Nirvana are" etc. It bugs the heck out of me. teratogen (talk) 19:38, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't expect us Brits to be consistent with this. I could say either and don't particularly notice what others say. I would notice if proofreading or editing, and would usually change to the singular. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I apologize. Jayron and Viennese Waltz are correct about how to use those verbs on Wikipedia. Marco polo (talk) 20:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• It should be noted this is a relevantly recent innovation in Britain. You don't find it in Shakespeare, Dickens, or old movies, and not in Shaw or Wilde as far as I am aware--I may be wrong there, but I haven't noticed it. Pluralization is a common way to mark politeness and prestige, so its spread may simply be a form of euphemism. See T/V distinction and royal we. It would be interesting to see when this trend began. Perhaps with the BBC? μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Oddly, I'm finding the American usage being generalised to "names take a singular verb even if they're plural". I occasionally find myself having to revert edits to articles on tribes of Iron Age Britain that change "The Atrebates were a tribe..." to "the Atrebates was a tribe..." --Nicknack009 (talk) 20:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The assertion that plural verb with grammatically singular noun does not occur in Dickens can be shown to be incorrect with a minute or two of Googling. Rock bands having been in short supply in the 19th Century, I looked for concordance for "the committee were" and "the committee have" as "committee" is a word with some history of being used with a plural verb, particularly where the emphasis is on the individuals within the group. From Martin Chuzzlewit: "The Committee were embellished also [...]" [46]; from an article in Household Words: "The best and most spirited teacher was a young man [...] whom the Committee were about to send out to Australia [47]; from a speech made by Dickens in 1856: "twice the committee have considered that it was not unreasonable" [48]. Although Dickens had no cause to write about rock bands, he was happy to use a plural verb when talking about another musical band: "The band were seated opposite us. Five men, with wind instruments, part of the band of the National Guard, to which the farmer's sons belong" [49]. Jayron32's explanation of the rationale behind this usage is sound and I see no reason to complicate the issue with references to politeness and euphemism. Valiantis (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Very good. "The committee were" as a search term would not have occurred to me. Is that a lone usage, or are there other examples, such as "the parliament were"? I am not sure what you mean by "Jayron's reasoning", but if it is that collective nouns take plural verbs because they have members, that is no explanation at all, just a rationalization. It was not just discovered in the 19th century and only in Britain that committees actually have plural membership. The singular verb with a noun whose form is singular has been around since PIE days; that's not the result of ignorance that some singular nouns are names for bodies with more than one person. Some other reason for the adoption and spread of the formation is necessary. μηδείς (talk) 23:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
While both the British or American usage are grammatically correct we should remember that the British use, if applied strictly, conveys more information, particularly as band names are traditionally a sort of non representative verbal shortcut, like the name of a pub. Take the currently popular Passenger (singer), for example, which is the name that a singer called Mike Rosenberg puts on his recordings. He used to be in Passenger (band), but kept the name after the band broke up in 2009, so the pre-2009 'Passenger are...' and post 2009 'Passenger is...' tells us something about the artist. Similarly I first saw Villagers (band) on Later when the 'band' consisted of just Conor O'Brien and his guitar. The British have been used to doing this for years in regard to pub names: "The Hat and Feathers is a pub". I'd be interested to know whether Americans ever say something like "Cheers are a bar"?Blakk 16:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
"Cheers!" is a conventionalized toast (like "Bottoms up!" or whatever) and is not an ordinary plural noun (it's an interjection, not a real noun at all in its main usage). The actual noun "cheer" is abstract and not easily pluralizable, in the meaning corresponding to the drinking toast... AnonMoos (talk) 08:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

In what variety of English is "Google are" used? I could see "Bing and Google are search engines" but not "Google are a search engine". CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 12:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You wouldn't get "Google are a serach engine", but you might get "Google are a company best known for their search engine". --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes we see writers with feet in both camps. Apple are playing catch-up, says Microsoft: Microsoft has brushed off Apple's move to give away its software, claiming the iWork productivity suite from its rival was "lightweight" …. And here, the writer starts out treating Google as singular (is, it, its), but before the end of the opening paragraph it's become plural (are, they). Then the final sentence of the 2nd para switches briefly back to singular before reverting to plural (... has been able to limit their success ...). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 17:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Interesting because both "Google are a company best known for their search engine" and "Google is a company best known for their search engine" sound fine to me and I really don't see any problem with Jacks first example. This suggests that sooner or later someone is going to be annoyed with me for using the wrong phrasing in an article. It's probably due to the strange variety of English that I've listened to over the past 40 years. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
If I heard someone say "Google are a company that.." or "Grand Funk are a band that.." I might reply "It ARE?" because the sentence sounds like it has a singular subject. Edison (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
CBW, I don't think anyone would support mixing and matching different varieties in the same context. My first example is equivalent to "Microsoft is a company, but Apple are a company". Is that weird, or are that weird? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:39, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## Help with French phrase

It states:

• "FU Daiwie prend comme le titre de son texte Imposition of Taxonomy. Effectivement les traducteurs européens notamment Joseph Needham obéissent à leur conception taxonomique dans le choix des fragment sà rendre et la manière de la faire. Ce qui entraîne inévitablement une déformation face à l’original. L’auteur, pris Mengxi Bitan comme un cas d’étude, effectue une analyse critique à partir de leurs interprétations de la découverte de la déclinaison magnétique en Chine."

• "FU Daiwie takes as the title of his text Imposition of Taxonomy. Indeed the European translators such as Joseph Needham obey their taxonomic design in the choice of fragments to make and how to do it. This inevitably leads to a deformation of the original face. The author, Dream Pool Essays taken as a case study, carried out a review based on their interpretations of the discovery of the magnetic declination in China analysis."

So is the author is saying that by translating something selectively, the meaning of the text is degraded, and that one has to translate the whole text in order for it to be true to the original? And that Mengxi Bitan is used as the author's case study?

WhisperToMe (talk) 20:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

First, there's a small error in the French text. It should be des fragments à rendre.
I would translate the text as: FU Daiwie takes as the title of his text "Imposition of Taxonomy". Effectively, the European translators, such as Joseph Needham, follow their taxonomic conception in their choice of fragments to render and their manner of doing it. That which results inevitably leads to a deformation in regard to the original. Mengxi Bitan taken as a case study, the author carries out a critical analysis based on their interpretations of the discovery of magnetic declination in China. μηδείς (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I would not translate effectivement as "effectively"; that's a slight false friend, I think. GT's "indeed" is probably closer. --Trovatore (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I have no problem using indeed, but one of the meanings of effectively is "in effect" which means the same thing as "in fact" or "in deed". The emphasis is different, and I'll bow to your judgment on the connotation of the term. μηδείς (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, I'm making a bit of an assumption as well, which is that it's the same as Italian. Effettivamente or in effetti means "in fact", but not so much "in effect". In English, I hear "in effect" as meaning something like "restricting ourselves to the practical consequences and ignoring fine distinctions", which connotation is not really there in the Italian. --Trovatore (talk) 21:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Thank you! The "des fragments" thing turned out to be a typo on my end (I reviewed the text to make sure) - Medeis, your translation is used here: De_l'un_au_multiple:_Traductions_du_chinois_vers_les_langues_européenes#The_versatilities_of_translations WhisperToMe (talk) 21:23, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
My pleasure. Do see Trovatore's suggestion above. μηδείς (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Ok. I quoted only a portion of the quote, which does not include "effectivement/indeed" WhisperToMe (talk) 21:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The second sentence would be better: "This inevitably leads to deformation compared to the original." And "effectivement" is indeed indeed. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:04, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Ce qui entraîne inévitablement une déformation face à l’original is not a complete sentence. Is there a verb missing? I assumed there was. IMJ's translation is removing something while mine adds something. μηδείς (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I checked the source text and it does say: "Ce qui entraîne inévitablement une déformation face à l’original." WhisperToMe (talk) 00:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Is the punctuation right as well? Ce qui means that which, so we literally get an incomplete phrase: "That which follows inevitably a deformation in regard to the original." I assumed there was an omitted "is" after follows. μηδείς (talk) 00:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I think that this is a natural construction in somewhat informal French. Technically, it's a sentence fragment. I think it should not be translated "That which ..." but "Which ...", as in "Which inevitably entails a deformation relative to the original." In informal English that kind of dependent clause often occurs even though it violates prescriptive grammar. Marco polo (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
That's fine, but "which" is no different from "that which", in that it introduces a dependent clause, and a verb is still missing, or perhaps the punctuation is wrong. μηδείς (talk) 03:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Ce qui entraîne inévitablement une déformation face à l’original is a complete sentence. About "ce qui", you can refer to this pageAldoSyrt (talk) 07:57, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually, that page only shows ce qui being used to introduce dependent clauses, and that is the prescriptively "correct" usage. However, as I've been trying to say, it is common in French to begin a sentence with this pronoun, even though it is not really "correct". Marco polo (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Marco's right. It's technically a sentence fragment, but one that is tolerated even in quite formal French. A literal translation wouldn't sound good in English, so you can translate it the way I said unless Aldo has a better solution. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but according to Le Bon Usage (mine is 12th ed., 1988) §674: "Ce devant une proposition relative commençant par qui, que, quoi prépositionel, dont. [...] b) Ce comme représentant une phrase [my emphasis] ou une partie de phrase et constituant avec une relative un élément incident : [...] Le lien avec l'antécédent se relâche facilement, et les auteurs mettent alors une ponctuation forte devant le démonstratif. Ponctuation forte is meant to be a full stop, a semi colon... The translation by Itsmejudith is fine for me, but I am not an English native speaker.— AldoSyrt (talk) 21:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
The first page you linked to above, AldoSyrt, gives only examples of relative usage, and each sentence with ce qui has two finite verbs. You've cited another source, which also says the usage is relative, but you give no examples. It is quite easy to interpret Ce qui entraîne est inévitablement une déformation face à l’original as a full gramatical sentence, but until I see an example parallel to ee qui entraîne inévitablement une déformation face à l’original without a main verb I am going to have to disagree. μηδείς (talk) 01:58, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Disagreeing with a native speaker closely referring to Le Bon Usage. You're out of your depth, Medeis. Ce qu'il fallait démontrer. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Example given by Le Bon Usage, §674. "Il pouvait apercevoir l'Anglaise sans bouger, rien qu'en déplaçant les pupilles sous ses paupières baissées. Ce qu'il fit." Roger Martin du Gard (Nobel prize of literature) in The Thibaults. An other example by Marcel Proust in Á l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs: "Pour lui en toute circonstance il faisait ce qui lui paraissait le plus agréable, le plus commode, mais aussitôt c'était imité par les snobs. Ce qui n'empêche pas qu'il était délicieux avec elle, qu'elle l'adorait, et qu'il l'a pleurée pendant des années." The notion of "full grammatical sentence" is not clear, and there are, in French at least, numerous definitions of sentence. To quote again Le bon Usage: "Mais le plus souvent la communication se fait par une suite de phrases, qui sont en relation les unes avec les autres." (Note, to draw a bit a parallel, that this sentence begin with mais, that is considered as a mistake by des esprits logiciens as they are called by Grevisse -- it is not a compliment.) To go back to the notion of "full grammatical sentence", let analyze it. "Ce qui" subject , "entraîne" verb, ["...] une déformation [...]" direct object: S + V + DO. The syntax is correct. Yes I know, grammar is not only syntax... — AldoSyrt (talk) 12:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the examples! (You'll note Judith, I didn't say Aldo was wrong, period. Just that I wanted examples.) μηδείς (talk) 19:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
The sentence L’auteur, pris Mengxi Bitan comme un cas d’étude, effectue une analyse critique ... sounds weird. Is there a typo? I should say something like L’auteur pris Mengxi Bitan comme un cas d’étude et effectua une analyse critique ...AldoSyrt (talk) 07:57, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I was thinking it should be "l'auteur, pris par..." Adam Bishop (talk) 10:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
If it is said L’auteur, pris par Mengxi Bitan comme un cas d’étude..., it means that "the author" is taken as a case study by Mengxi Bitan. So, the English translation should be changed, if it is established... — AldoSyrt (talk) 17:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, either the par is missing and the meaning differs from my translation, or the pris is in an odd order. I took auter to refere to FU Daiwie, who wrote the text. Hence my interpretation. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, if there were supposed to be two verbs in the passé simple, "pris" would have to be "prit". I would say that changing both "pris" and "effectue" is the lectio difficilior, so it's more likely that "par" is missing after "pris" :) Adam Bishop (talk) 08:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
The French native speaker made a mistake! You are right: "l'auteur prit", with a "t". I think you gave the clue (Occam razor). Nonetheless, there are several problems with the text. "prend comme le titre de son texte"; "pris comme un cas d'étude"; "et la manière de la faire", I cannot see what la refers to; "leurs interprétations", I do not understand the usage of "leurs" here. Are Mengxi Bitan different persons? —AldoSyrt (talk) 09:08, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I assumed leurs refered to les traducteurs européens. I am not sure pris should be prit. It then clashes in tense with effectue. I assumed it was a strangely placed past participle, "taken", meant to be an absolute: "Mengxi Bitan taken as a case study". μηδείς (talk) 19:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I have not read all the comments, so this might have been mentioned already. There should be a double n in européennes to agree with langues in the feminine plural. Please see wikt:européennes.
Wavelength (talk) 19:48, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## Help with Chinese: Daiwie Fu's resume

I want to see if 傅大為 is the Chinese characters for "Daiwie Fu" [sic] who wrote "On Mengxi bitan's World of Marginalities and 'South-pointing Needles': Fragment Translation vs. Contextual Tradition" for De l'un au multiple: Traductions du chinois vers les langues européenes. There is a resume of a Daiwie Fu here sts.ym.edu.tw/index.php?act=member&pid=0&cid=0&id=7 http://archive.is/WLyYw

The work isn't listed there (the essay is from 1999). How do I get past versions of Daiwie Fu's resume to try to source that the Daiwie Fu who wrote the article has the Chinese name 傅大為? (and therefore has the Wikipedia article zh:傅大為). I'm trying to find pages that mention him at http://web.archive.org/web/20000301125640/http://www.ym.edu.tw/ym2.htm and http://web.archive.org/web/20050306052457/http://www.ym.edu.tw/ but I have had trouble finding them. Wouldn't he have a profile and be working at the same university? WhisperToMe (talk) 21:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The essay itself http://books.openedition.org/editionsmsh/1494 states that he was "Daiwie Fu National Tsing Hua University, Taiwan." so I wonder if past versions of that website will answer my question. I wonder if I can find him in here http://web.archive.org/web/20000620171538/http://www.nthu.edu.tw/NTHU/departs.html WhisperToMe (talk) 21:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

His English resume http://sts-eng.ym.edu.tw/T-DWFU.html - http://archive.is/rIULS seems to indicate it's him ("18. 1999, “On Mengxi Bitan’s [夢溪筆談] World of Marginalities and ‘South-Pointing Needles’: Fragment Translation vs. Contextual Translation” De l’Un au Multiple. De la traduction du Chinois dans les langues Europeennes, edited by Viviane Alleton and Michael Lackner, pp.175-201, Editions de la Maison de Sciences de l’Homme. 此文減縮1/3的一版本，刊於 Current Perspectives in the History of Science in East Asia, ed., by Yung Sik Kim and Francesca Bray, Seoul National University Press, 1999, pp.52-66." and "National Yang-Ming University, Taipei, TAIWAN 2007-"), but I would like to check earlier resumes on the National Tsing Hua website (the resume says his title was "Professor, History, Division of History of Science, and Division of STS. National Tsing-Hua University, Taiwan, 1993-2009.") WhisperToMe (talk) 21:47, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I guess I answered my own question Y Done WhisperToMe (talk) 21:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 11

## Help with Chinese: Finding Western Studies Department

On http://web.archive.org/web/20040811095009/http://www.sfs.nju.edu.cn/ (Archive of Nanjing University website) I want to find if Yu Xiuying (professor) once had a webpage there.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC) Found the webpages. Never mind.. Y Done WhisperToMe (talk) 03:37, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

## bis to insert numbered content in an existing numbered list: how to style?

Recently I've had to insert content when editing someone's numbered list. I vaguely recall using the word bis added to the number (to indicate that the final version will require renumbering due to the additions), but how is it styled? Preceded by a space? And to add more than one item between two sequential entries? -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You would have a list like 1, 1 bis, 2, 3, 3 bis, 3 ter, 4... which would, in the final version become 1...7. I've rarely seen anything used beyond ter in such an instance, but apparently, the full list is as follows: bis, ter, quater, quinquies, sexies, septies, octies, novies, decies... [50]. This is actually more of a French usage; in English, I've seen it more often as 1, 1a, 2, 3, 3a, 3b, 4... --Xuxl (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Indeed , I doubt that most English speakers would even recognise bis (let alone ter etc) unless they've worked with French sources or certain international standards. --ColinFine (talk) 16:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
These are, of course, Latin words, not French words. They are called "numeral adverbs", and the full list is here. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 17:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
But they are often used in French house numbers, for example (although as Xuxl says, hardly ever past "ter"). I don't think most French people realize they are Latin! The only time these words are regularly used in English is in prescriptions, and then they are usually abbreviated (bid = bis in die) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
The French also tend to call out the Latin word "bis" where English audiences would use the French word "encore". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:41, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The OP adds: The source text "list" is actually the code-heavy typed transcription of a documentary film's existing English-language subtitles I'm reviewing prior to their translation. My communications with the polyglot subtitling team are exclusively in writing, black on white, and this is my first time working with their arcane format. So I wanted something, hopefully unambiguous, that would catch their collective eye. The suggested addition of lower-case letters I avoided as that's associated with outlining (e.g. the function in MS Word). I'm quite content if my maneuver sends these offsite colleagues running to the dictionary; that's the "same page" I'd like us to be on. -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 6

## How many English stadia hosted the final of the UEFA Champions or Europa League?

I'm a solid Manchester United fan and I've been dying to know this. Please tell me the answer ASAP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.39.48.73 (talk) 06:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at List of European Cup and UEFA Champions League finals and List of UEFA Cup and Europa League finals where you can see exactly where each final was played. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 08:21, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
For the European Cup / Champions League: 2 - seven times at Wembley, once at Old Trafford. Since the UEFA Cup / Europa League final has been held at a neutral venue in 1997, 1: the then-City of Manchester Stadium (Rangers vs Zenit St Petersburg, 2007); previously when it was a two-legged affair obviously it was at each English finalists' ground: White Hart Lane 3 times, Anfield twice, Molyneaux and Portman Road once each. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 11:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 7

## Realistic Pirate movies.

I'm looking for some recommendations for realistic movies about pirates and privateers in "the age of sail". From the 1600's to 1830's or so, and I'm most interested in the Caribbean/Atlantic. I can think of a bunch of pirate movies - but none that I recall were remotely realistic. For example, real pirates never, ever fired broadsides at other ships...they wanted to capture them, not sink them! Good documentaries would work too.

Bonus points for something I can find & watch online!

TIA. SteveBaker (talk) 05:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

A realistic movie, says ye? Arrrrrh, be ye mad? The least fantastic fictional example I can think of is A High Wind in Jamaica, and that sails a bit too close to the wind, if ye takes me meanin'. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! That looks promising. SteveBaker (talk) 13:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I can think of one case where they would try to sink another ship ... if that ship is attacking them. Or, they might do a preemptive attack on a warship that's searching for them. StuRat (talk) 08:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
There aren't many cases when they did anything but run when faced with serious resistance. They'd have been horribly out-gunned by even a lowly 6th rate frigate. Most pirate ships had half a dozen 4lb minions and some swivel guns on an open deck. A naval vessel would have 20 or more 18lb cannons. Pirate ships were built for speed and stealth. They did their work with muskets, blunderbusses, pistols and cutlasses and didn't go around with black flags with skull & cross bones on them! The problem with almost all Pirate movies is that they're depicted as running round in gigantic square-rigged frigates...hence my search for a realistic one. SteveBaker (talk) 13:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
That is of course true in most cases, but this recent ref desk thread shows there were some notable exceptions. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
That link is now archived at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2013_December_4#Pirate_capture_of_a_man-of-war. Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## What song is this which honors Mandela?

Hi Wikipedians,

I was listening to this BBC iPlayer podcast and wanted to know which song it is which starts at 47:57. I tried searching a lot but couldn't nail it. Could anyone help me here please?

Thanks, Nikhil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.164.24.48 (talk) 14:38, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

If you have a smartphone, try running Shazam or SoundHound while the song is playing. --209.203.125.162 (talk) 20:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
And SoundHound indicates that it's from the documentary Cry Freedom, which had music by George Fenton. I'm not sure which particular song, but you can check out the soundtrack on Amazon. Shazam, incidentally, didn't recognize it. John M Baker (talk) 02:16, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## TV commercial actor?

Any idea who this guy from the "My Clean PC" TV ads is? He looks familiar, but I can't place him. And FYI, I don't trust that site's advertising one iota. I'm just wondering who he is. Thank you, all. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

According to http://www.ispot.tv/topic/actor-actress/kaB/justin-louis it's Louis Ferreira. He's been in a lot of TV shows (most I've never watched). --Modocc (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
There is something odd going on with this. The link Modcc provides says the actors name is Justin Louis. When you type that in at google search you get all sorts of hits for Ferreira but when you click on the images link you get these none of whom look like the actor in the ad. Curiouser and curiouser. Maybe someone else can get to the bottom of this. MarnetteD | Talk 20:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Yep it is a different guy and unless the source is completely inaccurate, he simply has the same name. If he is that obscure, he may simply be reminding Baseball Bugs of a more familiar actor perhaps. --Modocc (talk) 20:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
He must not be a union actor as they don't allow two actors with the same name. They have to use a stage name or change their real name. I know the actor from the original Clapper commercials and he wasn't union and I know an actor and stage manager who is union in a new spot for a plumbing service. It all depends on the production company but isn't unusual. --Mark Miller (talk) 05:35, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh....and many people see these actors and can't quite put their finger on where they know them from. I once waited on a guy I was sure I went to high school with, even asked him where he attended school. I could tell from their smiles (him and his girlfriend) that I was asking a very familiar question to him. He turned out to be a rather obscure television actor who did a lot of commercials back in the mid 80's and was on a lot of television shows like the Dukes of Hazard. I was so embarrassed those weeks later when I figured it out. LOL!--Mark Miller (talk) 05:43, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Mark, I know about the "can't have the same name" with the SAG but I am wondering if that is true if an actor stays in Canada. One of the links provided mentions Canada and that could be adding to the confusion. MarnetteD | Talk 22:00, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Like SAG-AFTRA, the UK union Equity [51] bestows the membership benefit of name rights, and several Canadian unions are also affiliated with the International Federation of Actors (FIA). These are listed here and they would, most likely, be doing the same. -Modocc (talk) 17:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC),

# December 8

## Singers wearing earpieces

I've often seen this, and wonder why they wear theses devices, which look like hearing aids. Last night all 5 singers in One Direction seemed to be wearing them while performing on SNL, and one even had to adjust his while singing. All I can think of is that they are to be used to feed the singers lyrics, if they forget, or maybe cue when each should start singing. StuRat (talk) 10:27, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

This is going to dent your faith in humanity, but see our article Lip-synching in music. Alansplodge (talk) 11:47, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
(ec) They're In-ear monitors, they serve the same function as wedge monitors but allow greater fidelity (higher quality, more clearly heard) and also allow the wearers to move around the stage more freely and still be able to hear the music and what they (and others) are singing. Nanonic (talk) 11:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
(ec)What Nononic said. Performers need to hear the music as it's being played so they can all keep in time and in tune with everybody else, but the main speakers are pointing away from them and the sound coming from them will be subject to echoes and delays as it bounces round the hall. The usual solution is to have monitor speakers at the front of the stage pointing towards the performers, but monitor speakers can feed back and if the crowd is very loud it can drown them out, so earpieces are an alternative. --Nicknack009 (talk) 11:58, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately, technology can fail. Some singers (especially folk singers) still prefer the traditional hand cupped to the ear in order to hear themselves.--Shantavira|feed me 13:29, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Exactly what Nononic said. I perform in a musical group, and we use in-ear monitor systems (Aviom to be specific) for several reasons 1) better control on the individual level than open-air monitors (I control what is in my mix, not the guy at the sound board, and if I need something changed, I change it myself) 2) The sound guy doesn't have to worry about us at all. He just worries about the house mix, since we're controlling our own monitors and perhaps most importantly 3) lack of cross-contamination between the monitor mix and the house mix. With open-air monitors (speakers pointing at the musicians rather than the audience) there's LOTS of problems with a) the musicians getting confused by the house mix (bounceback off the walls, delays, etc.) and with the house mix getting crap from the monitors (monitors getting picked up by mics, or monitors themselves bouncing off the walls behind the stage and feeding back to the audience). In-ear monitors are AWESOME things, and it's why everyone uses them now, where they have the means. There really is no good reason (aside from the extra expense of buying it) why someone WOULDN'T use them rather than pointing speakers back at the performers. They don't feed the singers lyrics, or anything like that. They're feeding the performers a pure, clean, easy to hear version of what they are singing and playing right then. The group I play in also feeds in a click track which also helps keep us in time, but that's literally the ONLY thing we have in our in-ear monitors that's not available to the audience. But yeah, they're really fundamental to good performance, hearing yourself and your bandmates clearly is key to putting on a good show, and that's what those in-ear devices provide for musicians. --Jayron32 03:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Follow-up Q: They appeared to only be on one ear. That seems like it would be very confusing, hearing different things in each ear. Do they have a hidden earplug in the other ear ? StuRat (talk) 05:41, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
A good performer also needs to be able to respond to the audience. Wearing earpieces in both ears would cut you off from the audience and make it more like a studio session. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Having said that, I've found a blog post by a vocal coach that says using only one can be bad for your hearing, and suggests it's better to use two in-ear monitors that let in ambient sound. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:41, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
An interesting article about the pros and cons of in-ear monitors. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
The video for Do They Know It's Christmas? featured a lot of singers cupping their hands to their ears while wearing headphones. Here's Sting and Simon Le Bon, Bono and Sting, and some others (Paul Young, maybe). What was that all about?  Card Zero  (talk) 22:08, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
They're just pushing the earpiece closer to their ear so that they can hear the music coming through it more clearly, I think. --Viennese Waltz 22:39, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 9

## original name of yop song

What was the name of the original song whose melogy was taken for this yop commercial? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxvD4iKZb6g. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.18.40 (talk) 15:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Never mind. Gimme Hope Jo'Anna by Eddy Grant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.18.40 (talk) 15:58, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 10

## true story omitted

I remember seeing Tom Guiry play Gregory Kingsley in the 1993 CBS-TV movie A Place to Be Loved (also known as Shattered Family). Why isn't this mentioned in the article about Guiry? What will he get following his altercation with an officer at an airport?142.255.103.121 (talk) 06:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Why isn't it mentioned? Because you haven't added it to his filmography, that's why. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 11

## French naval songs (inter-war)

In between the two World Wars, did the French have any songs specifically about torpedo boats? I know the Russians had their "Torpedo Boat Song" (which was a flop, and understandably so) -- did the French have anything comparable? Thanks in advance! 2601:9:3200:467:1830:AF9B:D09C:6497 (talk) 23:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 12

## Put another WHAT in the jukebox baby?

I love rock'n'roll. Put another dime in the jukebox baby!
Somebody put a quarter in the jukebox. Somebody play that certain hurtin' song.

I love rock'n'roll. But when did they raise the price? -- Toytoy (talk) 11:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Sometime in the late 70s to late 80s, apparently. --Jayron32 12:00, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
And, even earlier, one can find the lyric "Put another nickel in, in that nickelodeon". I'm (barely) old enough to remember when the price for a single play on a jukebox was a nickel. Deor (talk) 13:37, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
But it didn't increase in price in the 90s because "You can pay your last respects one quarter at a time" (Prop Me Up Beside the Jukebox (If I Die)). Rmhermen (talk) 18:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Jayron has the time frame right. For most of the 70's it was one song for a dime and three for a quarter - it was the same for pinball. In my neck of the woods it was the early 80s when it went to one song for a quarter - and yes I am so old I remember when the were 45 rpm records in the jukebox :-) MarnetteD | Talk 19:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting. When I were a lad, it were 1/- for two and 2/- for five, which is about half the US price (assuming an exchange rate of about \$2 == £1). Was the exchange rate back then vastly different? Tevildo (talk) 22:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Strictly from memory (which could so easily be wrong) the rate back then was 5 dollars to one pound. It might have been even higher earlier in the decade. MarnetteD | Talk 23:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
That would bring it back into alignment. My father used to refer to half-crowns (2/6) as "half-dollars", which is consistent with exchange rates of that magnitude. Tevildo (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
The history of the Jukebox is quite interesting. If you can remember when you put a nickel in, to play your 78 RPM record, and then had to crank it, then you're really dating yourself. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:37, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Ah, yes, I used to play "Top of the World", "Photograph", and "Angel of the Morning" for a quarter at the diner in Ocean City, NJ, when my dad took me fishing and we stopped for breakfast. μηδείς (talk) 22:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Good stuff. :) I wonder if jukeboxes at bars and other potential birthday party locations still include Eddy Howard's rendition of "Happy Birthday"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## Video involving momoko from momomo sumomomo

What is the name of the song that inspired the video with Momoko from Momomom Sumomomo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.154.129 (talk) 17:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Just in case anyone needs a link for this tongue-twister (I do): Sumomomo Momomo. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:43, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 7

## Maths homework

Q.Check which of the following subsets of R is compact, sequentially compact or countably compact :

 (a)   (-3,2]
(b)   (1,2)
(c)   [8,9)
Support your results with suitable arguments.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.209.194 (talk) 11:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you see the sentence at the top of this page that says: "We don't do your homework for you, though we’ll help you past the stuck point"? Tell us what you are stuck on, and we might be able to help (though it would be better on the maths reference desk). --ColinFine (talk) 13:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I'll give some tips.
then again, I'm not used to the English vocabulary in set theory and related math topics, so I could be wrong... Ssscienccce (talk) 22:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

## How to install CNG/LPG system on a 1.6L Kia CVVT engine?

I want to know about how to install CNG/LPG system on a 5 m (16 ft) fishing boat's installed 1.6L CVVT car engine (for information purposes only)?

Engine details:
Engine from: 2012 Kia Rio SX GDI
Displacement: 1,600 cm3 (98 cu in)
Engine name: Gamma
Original fuel type: Petrol/Gasoline
Valvetrain: Dual overhead camshaft, 16 valve

## How to pronounce Alexander Tietze's last name

Dutch isn't so different from German, so the first second of this youtube video should give you an idea. Ssscienccce (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
merriam-webster.com gives the IPA transliteraration of "Tietze's" as \ˈtēt-səz-\ and has a sound file - I can't tell you if it works because some ne'er-do-well has borrowed my speakers and not returned them. There's another sound file on memidex.com. Alansplodge (talk) 00:43, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Huh huh, \ˈtēt-səz-\. Huh huh. μηδείς (talk) 03:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 8

## Congolese woman

Picture from Flickr

Can anyone identify this woman, either individually, or in a more detailed manner than in the file history or at Flickr? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 04:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

[52] says Bangobango people group of Democratic Republic of Congo.
Sleigh (talk) 14:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I had seen that page when I did a reverse image search at google yesterday. But I believe they got the image from wikipedia--in any case, it is uncredited there, and described as a "representative image". Discussion of the image at Bantu peoples implies it was originally taken from flicker, where al it was described as was "Congolese woman". That's not to say it's not a Bangobango woman, but I was hoping maybe we could get something along the lines of "a woman wearing traditional Bangobango dress" or te like. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## Alan Winnington/Winnington Baronets

Is Alan Winnington (de, [53], [54]) related with the Winnington Baronets? --Dandelo (talk) 10:38, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can see, not directly. Sir Thomas Winnington, 4th Baronet (1811-1872) only had two sons; one died unmarried at the age of 21.[55] The other son, Sir Francis Salwey Winnington, 5th Bt. (1849-1941), had three sons, none of whom apparently had a son called Alan. I have discounted female children as they wouldn't have passed the Winnington name on to their children. You can follow the family tree backwards from the first page that I linked if you have the time, but lunch is ready now! Alansplodge (talk) 13:03, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, the 3rd and 2nd Baronets only produce one alternate line ending in John Francis Sartorius Winnington (1876-1918) who had two daughters before he was killed at the end of WWI. He would (I think) be a third cousin of the 5th Baronet; so if Alan Winnington was actually related, it would be only very remotely. Alansplodge (talk) 11:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

## Dip pen stuck in potato

In an old Laurel and Hardy short, the desk clerk at a low rent hotel placed the registry dip pen into a potato, when not in use. Was this really done back then, and for what reason ? Perhaps it kept the ink from drying into clumps on the nib ? StuRat (talk) 13:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I found The Cambridge Companion to Elgar, edited by Daniel M. Grimley and Julian Rushton (p. 36) which says "He (Edward Elgar) avoided writer's cramp by using a dip pen rather than a fountain pen, which required him to lean forward to the inkwell and clean his pen by plunging it into a potato.". I also found a novel called The Accidental Time Machine, by Joe W. Haldeman (p. 131) in which one of the characters asks (in reference to dip pens) "'Why a potato?' 'It keeps the points from getting rusty. You stick them into a potato when you're done for the day.'" This latter explanation seems less likely to me. We used dip pens and ink wells at our primary school in London in the 1960s (not many people believe me but I assure you that it's true). The steel nibs that we were provided with were plated (maybe with chromium?), and I never recall seeing one go rusty despite the way that we abused them (we used to play darts with them by throwing them into the wooden floors - the points would need a bit of straightening afterwards). We were given pink blotting paper to clean them with, as the deposits of dried ink made them drop big blots in your exercise book - a caning offence in my father's day (1920s) but would still draw adverse comments in the more enlightened 1960s. The trouble with blotting paper was that it left fibres on the nib and you had to be careful where you put the inky paper afterwards in case you got ink on everything. So using a potato to clean the nib sounds plausible, but I'd never heard of it until just now. Alansplodge (talk) 19:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
my guess is that it was just a gag. you poke a potato a couple of times and leave it out on a desk and it is not going to last long. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:44, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Elgar is not well known for slapstick; calling his bicycle "Mr Phoebus" after a character invented by Benjamin Disraeli was his kind of joke (no, I don't get it either). Alansplodge (talk) 19:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Elgar may not be joking, but the bit in the Laurel and Hardy clip probably is. things that are standardly performed or perceived as a joke can be found to be actually done by at least a few individuals as their normal form of business.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:00, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Well maybe, but going in search of backup, I found this interview with a lady who runs her own calligraphy business in California... Q. "What tool do you use in your business that you can’t live without?" A. "Don’t laugh. A raw potato. Its my secret weapon. A former calligraphy teacher showed me this trick to clean the ink off the pen nib, and I swear it really works!" Alansplodge (talk) 20:14, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so far. It sounds like it was indeed used, and the blotting of excess ink seems like a good explanation. I agree that the avoidance of rust doesn't sound plausible, as a potato is wet inside, and the other chemicals found there would, if anything, promote rust, not inhibit it.

As far as a potato not lasting long, I suspect they would last a lot longer than you might think, perhaps months. I've forgotten about potatoes in a cabinet before, only to open the cabinet weeks later and find they had all sprouted. And, of course, potatoes are dirt cheap, so you can easily replace one that dries out, sprouts, or rots. I also suspect any slits in the potato would quickly "heal". Potatoes and onions are amazing things, I like to call them undead, based on their ability to recover from just about anything short of boiling them. StuRat (talk) 11:31, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Slits in potatoes don't heal, they scar, at best. μηδείς (talk) 21:25, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
That's why I put it in quotation marks. They seal the potato, so it stops losing moisture and admitting bacteria. StuRat (talk) 10:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## Clearing the sandpit in Long Jump

Are there any rules or regulations that cover the (admittedly unlikely) event that an athlete competing in the Long Jump actually clears the sand pit? Would the jump be a foul or would they be awarded a maxmimum jump distance? Likewise, in throwing events, is there anything covering someone throwing their object beyond the final line of the measuring sector. Nanonic (talk) 15:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Speaking from distant memories of school-level competitions (I once briefly held an under-16 County (Kent, UK) record in the 8lb Shot put), in throwing events the distance lines are only there for the informal guidance of spectators and competitors – the actual distance measurement should always be done with a steel or fibreglass measuring tape from the landing point to the edge of the throwing circle. The only problem would, I'd think, be determining whether the object landed within the permissible angle of the Sector if it did so beyond the end of the marked Sector lines and line-end flags.
In the (presumably representative) USATF 2006 Rules, the relevant Article III Section 1 Rule 187 goes into some detail about marking out the Sectors for the various throwing events, but I can see no suggestions of any maximum distance restrictions.
Regarding the Long jump (or Triple Jump), the eventuality seems so unlikely that there may be no relevant rules in existence. Note that in the above-linked Rules, Article III Section 1 Rule 185 Long Jump Item 6 states:
"It is recommended that the distance between the take-off board and the end of the landing area shall be at least 10 metres."
Since 10m is more than 10% greater than the current Long jump World Record, it's being exceeded in our era seems nigh-on impossible: should future athletes begin to approach 10m, doubtless the recommendations would be modified, since no-one would want to see an athlete injure him/herself by landing on the edge of the pit (or beyond). As for the Triple jump, the event's nature guarantees the final jump phase being shorter than in the Long jump, so the potential problem is taken care of by the former's set-up. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195 90.201.159.157 (talk) 16:49, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
IAAF Competition Rules 2014-2015 (4 MB PDF) pages 199-200 says:
RULE 185
Long Jump
Competition
1. An athlete fails if:
...
(d) after taking off, but before his first contact with the landing area,
he touches the runway or the ground outside the runway or
outside the landing area;
...
3. An athlete shall not be regarded to have failed if:
...
(d) if in the course of landing, he touches, with any part of his body,
or anything attached to it at that moment, the border of, or the
ground outside the landing area, unless such contact contravenes
Rule 185.1(d)
...
Take-off Line
4. The distance between the take-off line and the far end of the landing
area shall be at least 10m.

The World Record is 8.95m. They probably didn't have beyond the landing area in mind with "outside the landing area", but a literal interpretation says it would be a fail. If a jumper is about to go a little long then I suppose he could deliberately put down a leg to touch something inside the landing area first, but the whole thing is rather theoretical if the 10m minimum is satisfied. In practice I suspect the officials would either try to conservatively measure the actual jump length, or give the distance to the far end of the landing area. If they declared a fail then the jumper would probably protest to the Referee. Page 147 says:
To arrive at a fair decision, the
Referee should consider any available evidence which he thinks
necessary, including a film or picture produced by an official video
recorder, or any other available video evidence. The Referee may
decide on the protest or may refer the matter to the Jury. If the Referee
makes a decision, there shall be a right of appeal to the Jury.

PrimeHunter (talk) 16:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

## How do they turn off/on the fuel pumps when a gas station closes/opens?

Not the emergency shut off. I'm looking for the method in which the older gas stations (before they were all 24 hours and took credit cards) would shut down the pumps at night, and then turn them back on in the morning. Is their a switch inside the station? A breaker box? A key that must be turned at the pump? Anyone ever worked at a gas station and know how they turned off/on the pumps? Just to be clear, this is for a story I'm writing, not looking to steal gas :) Thanks! Ditch 18:14, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I've seen the forecourt lights and the pumps being turned-off at the same time, without anyone walking out of the kiosk. I would be surprised if there isn't a switch inside that turns off the power supply, but I don't know for certain. Alansplodge (talk) 19:13, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I used to work at a country general store that had a couple pumps out front. They had just a simple switch behind the counter. It was the same as what you would use to turn off a light in your house. If you need a bit of realism for your story, it also had an ancient piece of masking tape above the switch that read simply "Pumps". Dismas|(talk) 19:16, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
For fiction purposes, persuade your local gas station to remove the lower nacelle or cover of the pump. I haven't looked in side for many a year but the electric motor (the circuit breaker of which is back at the cash desk, so that it can be turned off in emergencies) usually turns a wheel - via a V belt. On that wheel (which drives the pump) is a square nut. A crank handle can be placed over it, to hand-crank the pump. This is for the reasons of: a prolonged power cut or WW3 breaking out and the survivors needing to... well as a author you know that scenario already. Also, the circuit breakers or on/off switches in old stations the would have be on the distribution board (for cost reasons) but modern stations may also have infra-red flame detectors for auto-shut off.--Aspro (talk) 20:20, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Now that you have me thinking about it, how far are we going back? I have never seen any key on the pump itself. The nearest, is that some nozzles and holsters had holes at the base so that a padlock shackle could looped through. We have had credit cards for some forty years - is this an ancient historical novel, where one had one had to change gear with a floor shift and control the a/c by winding the side windows up an' down and rely on the local blacksmith to change the tires? --Aspro (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 9

## Fleur-de-lis

I don’t understand why you lot consider this to be a Christian symbol. I have never seen any biblic mentions or uses of this. Are you just classifying it as such simply because it was used by Christians? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 03:27, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

See the section: Fleur-de-lis#Symbolism in religion and art. Rmhermen (talk) 03:40, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Damn, I missed the lily mention in the Song of Solomon. Still, it’s ambiguous and not in the New Testament. At the very least, the symbol is not biblic in origin, surely. --66.190.69.246 (talk) 07:43, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Christianity has accumulated a great mass of symbols over the last two millennia, and not all of them are directly Biblical in origin. The Ichthys symbol was used from the very earliest days of the Church, but the mentions of fish in the Gospels don't really support it's use as a personal emblem of Christ, unless you accept that Jonah prefigures the Resurrection. Alansplodge (talk) 11:20, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. --66.190.69.246 (talk) 12:50, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

"You lot"? Is GWB lurking here? μηδείς (talk) 20:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Why would George Bush use a Britishism? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 10:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Maybe he picked it up from our Tone? Alansplodge (talk) 16:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## Verifying if two images taken by Edward S. Curtis the same person and Nampeyo on Wiki?

Viewing a biography of Edward S. Curtis on television which showed a variety of pictures of his work, being instantly attracted to one in particular. On searching the internet, found a handful of pictures I'm interested in, one from the show and another looking like it's the same person, but differently posed, sitting, painting pottery. The head shot showed on TV had been edited. I found 'that one' plus the original, where she's carrying pottery on her head. They've edited the pottery out, apparently for sales purposes because it's not looking very flattering? All his pictures are up for sale. So, I've discovered 'four' so far! In the effort of finding more, finding Nampeyo on Wiki, saw an old Nampeyo. Although it's probably the same person, but she doesn't quite have the same facial features as the younger pictures present, especially in the mouth? Zooming in doesn't help recognition? Finding another with a different hair a style that maybe of the same person taken at a later date, but unable to verify? After fruitless efforts trying to find email contact address or links to establish such, and finding nearly all in the Wiki article are either dead or sectioned off as a copywrite issue, I need to ask if you can help find the pictures of the same person to verify these two pictures as being the same person or not including Nampeyo in Wiki? Can't give you copies of the pictures I have, because I don't seem to be able to paste or upload them? They're not on Wiki to reference to? Names related to any of these pictures from sites are ambiguous? Best of luck!Priboi2011 (talk) 22:59, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

We have articles on Edward S. Curtis and many of his pictures at [56]. We also have articles on Nampeyo (which does not use a Curtis picture) and her descendants, also potters. This non-Wikipedia link shows a couple of non-Curtis pictures of her at different ages. There appear to be at least 3 or 4 Curtis images. Curtis visited the Hopi in 1900, 1902, 1904, 1906, 1911, 1912, and 1919. At least one image of Nampeyo is dated 1900[57]. There are about a dozen non-Curtis images of Nampeyo on that net, several which are sourced to museums, who you could also ask questions of. I don't see any copyright problems listed on these Wikipedia pages. Do you know which pages had that notice? Rmhermen (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## A question about black light

A strange one this, but I'm wondering if the term "black light" (as in ultraviolet light) is predominantly an American expression. I live in the UK and am currently writing a story in which UV plays a small role. I remember the term from series such as Quincy, but when I read my piece to an audience this evening they queried my use of it, and it got me thinking. Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. 86.140.105.29 (talk) 23:57, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

When writing, one has to consider one's audience and how they will receive/perceive it – think that's what your asking. From a technical point of view, I live in the UK also and have always understood 'black light'. But I am of a technical background and your readers may not be. To dispel all doubt, it might be better to spell it out that it is ultra-violet 'A' that is your subject (or object or whatever)(gosh I can't believe I just got that all so mangled up). A good author does a little bit of research (as you're doing now). Your novel may carry more conviction (credibility) if you define (simply) that 'black-light' has a wave length of … OH, some one has just called at the door – I will try and come back later and give you a reference.--Aspro (talk) 00:23, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Back! As always Wikipedia has an article on it. Black light (Ultraviolet A) has a wave length of 400 – 315 nm.--Aspro (talk) 01:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Interestingly, on the US Amazon.com there are many products described as simply a "Blacklight", but on Amazon.co.uk the same products usually described as a "UV Blacklight" or a "Blacklight UV torch" or some other similar construction that gets both search terms in the title.
I don't know if that indicates an English Language variation, or just that the UK copy editor is more thorough. APL (talk) 02:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I could swear I remember hearing an engvar term for this just recently, not just the term UV light, but something colloquial. Of course I cannot remember what that was.... μηδείς (talk) 02:18, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Many moons ago I had a blacklight in my bedroom, so it's been known in the UK for at least 35 years! --TammyMoet (talk) 11:14, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
In many cases, we Brits understand American use of the language - mostly because we watch a good number of US TV shows and movies - but we often do not use the Americanisms ourselves. So when an American talks about (say) putting something into the "trunk" of their car, we know they are referring to what we call "the boot" - but we wouldn't ever use the word "trunk" to describe it. So it comes as no surprise that we understand "blacklight" to mean "UV" - but use "UV" ourselves. The idea of light who's color is black because you can't see it is an interesting description of UV - but sadly, the exact same reasoning would lead you to describe infrared light the same way. SteveBaker (talk) 13:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Do you actually watch those shows on the TV? Or on the telly? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
TV is the normal BritEng term. "Telly" is a very informal - and somewhat old-fashioned - colloquialism. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Aha! Old-fashioned. As in, in my youth it was often called a "TV set", short for "television set". I don't often hear it said that way nowadays. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I live in Texas...so I'm somewhat immersed in the American dialect. But yes, we Brits gather around our Telephonoscopes each evening to watch dim, flickering black and white images from our ex-colonies. SteveBaker (talk) 17:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
When I (here in the UK) first read the heading, I thought for a moment "what do they mean by black light -- oh, they probably mean ultra-violet". The term was coined by Gustave Le Bon in 1896 for radiation that passes through opaque objects, but soon afterwards it began to be used for UV light (C S Page in 1913). The term appears in the revised 14th (1957) edition of Encyclopædia Britannica, so it is clearly British as well as American, but I haven't seen it used here for a long time. From the 1960s, ultra-violet became well-known, and this seems to be the preferred term here in the UK. Dbfirs 22:03, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I think "ultraviolet" is the normal US term for the radiation itself, what you block with sunscreen. No one would say "don't stay out too long in the sun, kids, or you'll get too much black light!" That would just be silly.
But the gadget that you buy specifically for your haunted house at Halloween, or to show to best effect your black-velvet painting of some reclining pinup model, that's a black light. --Trovatore (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• So, is there no other colloquial British term? I thought I remembered reading of something around Halloween, and then realizing what was meant was a black light. μηδείς (talk) 00:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Nope; we say "ultraviolet" or "UV" - see [58] or [59]. Unlike some of the other British editors here, I have never heard of "black light" before - I initially thought this thread might be something to do with black holes... Alansplodge (talk) 16:46, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 10

## central pain

I am shocked to read under the entry central pain, wiki wrote this reads like an ad. I am one of millions of cp sufferers and it has ruined my life. don't you do any basic research at all?? contact dr. wise young, head of research at Rutgers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.46.234.95 (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

This is a user-written encyclopedia. There is no "you" that wrote the article, it's a collaborative effort. Some articles are better than others and if you don't like the one on Central pain syndrome the best thing to do would be to improve it yourself. No-one here is going to contact a third party and get them to improve the article. --Viennese Waltz 10:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The treatment section lists many possible treatments, so it doesn't look like an ad, to me, which presumably would push one form of treatment only. StuRat (talk) 10:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I just removed the list of external links in the See Also section. Four of them were for the "Central Pain Foundation", including one Facebook link. If you have specific concerns on the page mention them on the central pain talk page. Katie R (talk) 13:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The Treatment section is rather badly written, but it seems to me to err more on the side of medical and "how-to" advice than advertising. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

## Andre Bocelli

He has sent a picture out of himself and Joyce, who is Joyce? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.189.11.175 (talk) 16:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Just a guess - but American mezzo-soprano Joyce DiDonato? You can do a Google images search on her name to see photos of her - perhaps you'll be able to make a more positive ID from that? Can you post a link to the photo you're talking about? SteveBaker (talk) 17:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 11

Looking at Google Maps' images of the US-Canada border, there are a lot of places where there clearly used to be a road across the border (eg. Foxcroft Road/Woodlawn Road or Snow Road/Snow Settlement Road). When were these roads closed? --Carnildo (talk) 02:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Entirely speculation here, but I suspect that many of these roads were closed post 9/11. Many rural US-Canada border crossings were rather open and unguarded pre-9/11. Even major crossings like the Ambassador Bridge were pretty easy to get across. Usually a border agent stuck his head in your window and asked "Where ya headed" before just waving you through. I used to drive across the Windsor-Niagara Falls section of southern Canada quite frequently on my drive from Chicago to New Hampshire, and other than checking my license and absentmindedly asking some simple questions, nothing ever happened. Post 9/11 the world is VERY different, and border crossings have become much more restricted. It is quite likely that many places like this have been shut down because the U.S. cannot provide the level of security they wish to. --Jayron32 02:49, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, in many of these rural, out-of-the way crossings, there was no border officer on duty. There was either a remote link from which you talked to a border officer via phone, or nothing at all except a sign saying you had to report to the nearest border station at wherever after entering the other country's territory. It all depended on people collaborating willfully, as well as a willingness to turn the other way and not harass local residents who crossed the border regularly. This has largely ended post 9-11. Since it is too expensive to put a manned border crossing on all those little-traveled roads, the roads have simply been closed off, and a more circuitous route must be used to cross the border via a formal border crossing. --Xuxl (talk) 15:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

## Round town in the middle of the desert

It has a round layout. It's in the middle east somewhere in the middle of the desert. I think it's military. It was built within the last 30 years, I think. Does this sound familiar? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Shot in the dark. Are you sure it isn't the UTA Flight 772 memorial: [60]. --Jayron32 03:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
It's a town, not a giant white tylenol. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Maybe King Khalid Military City in Saudi Arabia (though it looks more octagonal than circular in layout)? Deor (talk) 16:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes!!!! That's it!. Thank you sooo much! :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## Determining network of mobile phone number

This site claims to be able to identify the network mobile numbers were originally assigned to based on OFCOM records. However, it also claims to be able to identify the 'actual' network a mobile number is currently registered with, even after number transfers and so on. Does this sound legit? What mechanisms might it use to be able to do this? --81.101.105.36 (talk) 12:47, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I can't speak for that site, but I can tell you there are publicly available websites (in the US) that telephone company specialists use to check just such information when needed. μηδείς (talk) 00:19, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## The Name for a Fear of Risk

What is the name for a fear of risk? Examples of this could be:

• An individual fearing to do something which would risk his or her life (such as joining the military).
• A fertile biological male refusing to have any sex with a fertile biological female due to his fear of accidentally getting her pregnant.
• An individual trying to avoid driving a car whenever possible in order to avoid accidentally causing a car accident and/or getting in legal trouble as a result of this.
• Et cetera

I just saw an Wikipedia article for Atychiphobia, which is the fear of failure (I suppose that all of these things could be considered failures in a way). However, is there a better term for this specific fear? Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 23:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Risk aversion (psychology).  Card Zero  (talk) 23:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Note that a phobia isn't just a fear, but an unreasonable one. So, being afraid of joining the army and getting shot isn't a phobia, while a debilitating fear of butterflies is. StuRat (talk) 00:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, it has to interfere with normal functioning (the article says significant interference in social or occupational activities). Whether joining the army is normal or not is debatable, which underlines the cultural aspect of phobias. It's certainly an "occupational activity", although the article also says (quoting the DSM) if a phobic stimulus ... is absent entirely in an environment — a diagnosis cannot be made. So I think "occupational" refers only to the person's own occupation, and I get the impression that a fear of being in the army counts as a phobia if you are likely to join or already in the army, unless it's not culturally normal for you to be there anyway (e.g. you were drafted and aren't keen), in which case you're just scared.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
The third item could be a phobia. The first two shouldn't be. Those "fears" are simply common sense. As the Wizard said (or should have said) to the Lion, "You're confusing cowardice with wisdom". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:21, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

# December 12

## Cast iron in a dish washer

What would likely happen if I were to clean one of my cast iron frying pans in my dishwasher? I'm guessing that I'd have to re-season the pan but would there be anything else wrong with it? Could the cast iron possibly crack?

Please note, I'm not asking for any health, financial, or legal advice. Dismas|(talk) 00:43, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

"Cast iron is likely to rust in a dishwasher" says dishwasher, but without citing a source.  Card Zero  (talk) 00:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Dear god, please don't. Anything that needs to be cleaned off can be done with a scrub brush and some elbow grease. A little vegetable oil can also be used to loosen any particles, and kosher salt makes a really good abrasive. Many instructions recommend vegetable oil and kosher salt and a sponge. Soap should NEVER touch a cast-iron cooking vessel, and a diswasher is probably way too harsh. You'd likely ruin it in the dishwasher; cast iron can rust rather quickly in the hot, soapy conditions in a dishwasher. If you must use soap because nothing else works, consider a) buying a new one, because you may need to anyways or b) if you must use soap, HAND WASH the dish, dry thoroughly and immediately, and reseason the pan immediately. See [61] for some tips. If you google search "Cleaning a cast iron skillet" you'll get plenty of tips; if you also add the words "In a dishwasher" you'll get plenty of real world stories of people who did that, and then promptly had to buy a new one. --Jayron32 00:53, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have said that I do not plan on doing this. I'm well versed in how to clean cast iron and take care of it. It was just a curiosity. Dismas|(talk) 01:11, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I've done it. So long as you don't end up with a puddle of standing water in it, and quickly remove it and re-apply oil to it after, it works out fine. I agree that hand-washing is better, but if you don't have time to hand-wash it right after use, and it's already wet (say you just sauteed some veggies), then you sure don't want to leave it wet or soak it in detergent, so a dishwasher is a good alternative. StuRat (talk) 03:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## Symbol of Romance

(This is probably too subjective, but here it goes…)

What symbols, if any, are most closely associated with the Romance languages or Romance peoples? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 10:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there are any universal "symbols", though they share common roots in latin, culturally people like the French, Romanians, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, etc. are fairly distinct. The French national symbols include things like the Fleur de Lys and Marianne, while Italy has the Stella d’Italia and the Italia turrita. If you go back far enough, the only common symbols of Romance cultures would be those of the Roman Empire itself, like SPQR and the Aquila, but those sorts of symbols have not carried down through the ages, and really don't represent any of the modern Romance cultures, and certainly don't do so across all such peoples. --Jayron32 11:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
As Jayron says, there is no commonly accepted symbol. You could possibly invent one that might work as an icon based on one or more elements from Romanesque architecture, whose area of greatest development was in the western Romance-speaking region (though not Romania). Marco polo (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

## 06 SMART CAR

WORKING ON A FORTWO DIESEL, WHERE IS THE BATTERY? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.155.5.231 (talk) 15:12, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I did some Googling and the closest i got was "beside the intercooler". Does that help at all? Thanks Jenova20 (email) 15:15, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I think you'll find the battery under the floor in the passenger footwell: http://owners.smartusa.com/Battery.aspx - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Bravo Mike! All i found was that quote and a (different) guide to changing the battery, which wasn't too informative. More interestingly, you can buy these things in the US? They're tiny in the UK, let alone in the land of Hummers and pickups...Nice work Jenova20 (email) 15:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Seems so. Apparently unofficial imports started in 2006, with Mercedes bringing them in officially from 2008. God knows why though. I drove one once and the transmission was the worst I have ever come across - slow, jerky, noisy and ridiculously complicated. Smart it was not. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:39, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't let stereotypes fool you. We've had Minis over here in the US for at least a decade I think. We also have Smarts and Fiats 500s. And small Hondas have been some of the best selling cars for decades as well. Dismas|(talk) 15:43, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I'm rather fond of mini cars, as they barely dent my grill when I run them off the road. :-) StuRat (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I sold a guy a headlamp once, and while the box wasn't that big, he had to put it in the front of his Smart Car as the boot (trunk to American readers) space is non-existent. I suppose that's the trade off for lower petrol/diesel (gas to Americans) prices. Thanks Jenova20 (email) 16:40, 12 December 2013 (UTC)