Template talk:Dubious

Should the link to the Talk page really be talk:{{PAGENAME}}#Disputed? The relevant Talk section would have to be named Disputed. Shouldn’t there be a {{{1}}} thing to the actual section name (however that works)? —Frungi 04:31, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I changed this. 67.165.96.26 07:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, you can specify now. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Template:Disputed redirect

I do not agree with this. I used the template on the Ghost and to my great surprise one little sentence that I had listed as dubious was now a full-blown statement that all the article was disputed. The guidelines here Wikipedia:Disputed_statement haven't changed. So I do not see why someone would change this to a redirect unilaterally. QBorg 02:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excerpts from the Guidelines: "If you come across a statement which seems or is inaccurate[...] First, insert a "Disputed" section in the talk page to describe the problem. [...] Insert {dubious} after the relevant sentence or paragraph." QBorg 02:54, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The reason for the redirect was that the contents of this template were identical to those of tl:disputed (it even read disputed). It is generally considered not a good idea to have different two templates for the same purpose. The added advantage of tl:disputed is that it adds a category that is watched by many people, so that people will come in and help with the matter. At least that was the general idea. If it conflicts with current practice, this would bear discussion. Radiant_* 08:32, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
  • While I dislike seeing disputes waged in the article itself, that is what Wikipedia:Disputed statement calls for. Personally, I would rather have the issue handled only on the article's talk page, but that's neither here nor there. The two templates are used for different purposes -- {{dubious}} is to fairly unobtrusively dispute a statement in an article; {{disputed}} should be used to dispute the overall accuracy of an entire article, although many people slap that template on an article because they disagree with part of one sentence. Hmm... maybe {{disputeabout}} should be advertised more. SWAdair | Talk 10:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Interesting note: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Checking_verifiability suggests either copying or moving a disputed statement to the talk page, but doesn't mention adding a tag of any sort. That's what I like. Handle it all on the talk page. SWAdair | Talk 10:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • I do agree that disputes are handled better on a talk page. That's what talk pages are for. But it seems to me that either Wikipedia:Disputed statement or WP:V needs an amendment; maybe we should get some other opinions on the matter? Radiant_* 10:59, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
      • My point was basically that "dubious" is a nice tool for telling an user unfamiliar with wikipedia that a sentence he just reads might be false to redirects them on the talk page. I'm new on wikipedia so I do not really know where we could get more opinions on the matter. QBorg 15:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have used this template to flag off a section on Meluhha which I am unqualified to verify, but which raises my suspicions. It seems like a decent enough warning to the casual reader, especially since I don't feel able to judge whether or not it should be removed entirely. However, is there another way of bringing this to the attention of a linguist who could speak to the cited author's credentials? --Peter Farago 23:49, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Link to talk page

I don't think article pages should be linking to Talk pages. Sites that reproduce our articles rarely reproduce the Talk pages, and certainly any printed version would not. It seems to break the normal rules of namespace boundaries. A simple note that the fact is disputed seems adequate, and readers can consult the Talk page if they so desire. Soo 17:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Good point! There is code that will prevent the talk-page-related content from showing up on mirrors, but I misremember what that code is at present. Someone does need to fix this. There is at least one other template with a talk link like this that will also need this treatment. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

"Dubious" not "disputed"

This tag is "dubious" but the text it inserts is "disputed". I think they should both be "dubious". After all, there is a template for disputed content. When I add this it isn't because I don't believe something is true it's because I am skeptical and think someone else should have a look. If I don't get comments here I may just be bold and change the text of this tempmlate. —Ben FrantzDale 06:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Ben FrantzDale's suggestion, at least as long as no other tag is available--as I don't think there is--to indicate an assertion of which one is suspicious, but which one doesn't necessarily dispute per se, because of a lack of counter-evidence. If the George Bush article were to say he likes eating houseflies, I would like to flag that as dubious, though I do not dispute it since I have no evidence to the contrary. Is there any reason why the text for this isn't "dubious" instead of "disputed"? --CHE 16:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I see you just made the change yesterday. Very good. —Ben FrantzDale 00:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Burden of proof?

I am engaged in a dispute over a sourced, scholarly claim in an article. The editor who added the dispute tag, when challenged to directly quote from the cited source and show how it did not prove its point, declared that he felt he did not need to quote from the source as he felt it was entirely incorrect in every particular. He then claimed I should prove why I feel the source is correct. Note that I did not add this source to the article; it has been there for a long time.

The question is, is the burden of proof on the editor who adds the dubious tag, or on the editor(s) who defend the cited source? Ie., must he prove the source is wrong, or must I prove it right? Kasreyn 18:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This question does not belong on a template's talk page; try Wikipedia:Content dispute; see also Wikipedia:Disputed statement. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

DisputedAssertion and Dubious templates

Template:Dubious versus Template:DisputedAssertion. See WP:TFD#Template:DisputedAssertion.

Personally, I think that the name of the latter is more consistent with other templates, though the former (this page) has more history. Also, I like the idea of a picture separating a line item as a functional element of the page, and not a parenthetical. For the newbie's sake. If Template:DisputedAssertion makes it, this page may need to be differentiated from Template:DisputedAssertion, or merged with it. Again, my opinion, is to merge.

—  <TALKJNDRLINETALK>    

My opinion is that the Dubious template ought to stay, and moreover ought to read on the page as "dubious" rather than disputed. The point here is that they're two different things. I dispute something when I feel I have counterevidence. I am doubtful of something when I don't necessarily have counterevidence, but I'm suspicious of the assertion for various reasons; e.g. it just sounds totally nuts, it's been added by an editor who has added known falsehoods in the past (I have recently run into that), it creates inconsistencies. In any case, it is a flag that should warn the reader of a something misleading, or should capture the attention of an editor who might know better, but who might have missed the addition without the flag. CHE 18:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

As noted elsewhere, this isn't what this template is for. If you are doubtful of something unsourced, and it is not already subject to an editing dispute, use {{fact}}. If it is sourced and you doubt the source's authoritativeness, use {{rs}}. If it is allegedly sourced, but you doubt that the source says what the article claims it does, use {{verify source}}. Etc. See WP:WPILT for a list of all known inline templates of this sort. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikiproject Inline templates proposed

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Inline templates. I've been meaning to do this for a while. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 16:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

"Relevance" question

Should the "Dubious" template be used in situations where the relevance, but not the accuracy of a statement is disputed? If not, what template should be used in its place? CJCurrie 04:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's for sourcing/reliability/factuality/interpretation disputes (i.e. stuff covered by WP:V). There is no template I know of for relevance, at least not an inline one. More a matter for WP:BOLD cleanup, or talk page discussion at this point. A more general cleanup tag (even {{Cleanup}} could be used and the issues raised on the talk page. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I take that back. If there is an active dispute about the relevance of a statement, then this template would in fact apply; basically, if it is something that could be addressed by [[Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute

Wikipedia:Disputed statement]] more narrowly, then {{dubious}} could be relevant. (Also, some consider {{Cleanup}} to be deprecated, per Wikipedia:Clarify the cleanup, so my recommendation to use it is now obsolete.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

"Try not to use"

re: edit by The Cunctator, who writes on the template, `try not to use,' : why? see discussion above. There are lots of situations where one is surprised by an assertion but doesn't +know+ that it's false, and so wants to call the attention of the other editors to it, or to the editor who added it that it needs support. This seems essential to a wiki. CHE 21:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That's what talk pages, search engines, and libraries are for. Please try to keep inline disruptions to a minimum. The {{fact}} template serves an identical purpose. --The Cunctator 20:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed; the very issues raised by CHE are not at all what this template is for, though its previous incarnation of documentation made it sound like it was actually a clone of {{fact}}. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge